Don't fly here...

Hmmm, the wife and me took our planned flying vacation in April...
Turned out to be a nasty weather driving vacation of some 4000 miles...
Went to see the Arch (underwhelming)... In getting back on the highway
I took a wrong turn and wound up in the worst part of St. Louis just
blocks from the arch... Looks just like inner city Flint, and Detroit,
and Chicago, and Philly,and Pittsburg, and Cleveland, and other cities
I have been... Didn't know where I was for sure and I could have been
in any of those cities... (how come a nice country boy like me keeps
getting lost in these places... I don't get lost in the woods.)
So from that perspective St. Louis is neither better nor worse... I
did not feel threatened driving narrow tenement streets in what was
clearly gang territory, with grafiti, and litter...
I can't speak for St. Louis, but Flint and Detroit have to be a hard
row to hoe for the civic officials... The manufacturing base has
collapsed and the upper and middle classes have mostly fled to the
burbs, like Troy, Oakland, etc... The city population has increasing
percentages of deep poverty, prison records, hard drug addiction where
stealing is the only way to obtain the drugs, crumbling infrastructure,
hoplessness, gang bangers controlling entire neighborhoods, alcoholism,
single mother families where each child has a different surname and no
father in the home, declining educational levels and standards... The
social contract is broken... And that social contract involved the
neighbors knowing your business, being willing to help, and being
willing to let you know if they disapproved of your life style and your
childrens behavior..

At the same time these are large cities that come to life in the
morning with choking traffic streaming in from the burbs to the
downtown and business centers, the malls, the corporate headquarters
established in prior eras, the auto plants... Hundred thousand dollar
cars driving past eight thousand dollar houses... But there are not
muggings at the stop lights or fire fights in the Middle of Jefferson
Avenue... Commerce goes on because even poorer people need food,
clothing, medical care, birth records, gasoline, lawn mowers, rental
movies, and on, and on... The court house complex is a major center of
activity and of economic flow with money changing hands... Used car
lots abound... Check cashing stores abound... Rent To Own stores are
legion... Convenience stores sell cigarettes by the pack or by the
single smoke... Beer and liquor sell well... Cheap clothing and cheap
furniture stores multiply... KMART, WALLMART, etc., do well in these
areas... Sams Clubs, and similar stores are not seen in the inner city
as that population base does not make volume purchases, one smoke and a
single beer are more like it...

You do not take your life in your hands traveling through these
cities... However, go bar hopping, hanging around rough places at
night, looking to get high or laid, and they might just find your body
in the morning... Seems from my readings in latin from high school
(long ago in a world far away) that this has been true from the
earliest writings of man, not just since the post industrial hangover
in Michigan... The Roman soldiers knew that there were certain bawdy
houses best avoided if you wanted to be around in the morning...

denny
hemlock, michigan (one stop light away from being just a wide spot in
the road)

Amen
Ol Shy & Bashful - a wide world traveler and adventurer in the seediest
places out of pure boredom

I spent most of my life in St. Louis. Personally, I don't understand why
St.Louis was selected as one of the most dangerous cities. I have seen the
good side and the bad side of this town. I considered the Southside of
Chicago, and several towns near Pittsburgh are more dangerous than
St.Louis. So, I have to say that St. Louis is not as bad as reported by
CNN.
I support this statement based on what I personally have seen.

You'd think they were talking about East St. Louis instead.

I came across this interesting page about ESL:

http://www.builtstlouis.net/eaststlouis/eaststl00.html

You'd think they were talking about East St. Louis instead.

East St Louis is one of the scariest places on the planet.

http://www.builtstlouis.net/eaststlouis/eaststl00.html

Interesting. Mary and I stood under the Arch, well after hours, one summer
night not long ago. Everything was closed and deserted, and we were the
ONLY people there. It was lovely, with a moon rising over the city...
Very romantic.

Then, it started to get creepy, knowing how close East St Louis was to us,
and how totally vulnerable we were. There we were, two dumb white people
with big targets painted on our backs, and we high-tailed it out of there.

A bittersweet memory. I still remember when most cities were safe to walk
around in.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Its not that bad Jay. The arch can be pretty creepy at night though,
due to the number of trees that line every walking path. After 5pm
downtown St. Louis pretty much "shuts down" unless there's a sporting
event going on. We're just not a downtown sort of city. The
activities all are happening further west in the suburbs or Clayton.

There has been a recent push (last 5-7 years or so) to develop pocket
sort of communities to attract people to downtown again (Washington Ave
Loft district, Laclede's landing, etc) with differing levels of
success.

There has been a recent push (last 5-7 years or so) to develop pocket
sort of communities to attract people to downtown again (Washington Ave
Loft district, Laclede's landing, etc) with differing levels of
success.

Yeah, most larger cities are trying this approach, with varying degrees of
success.

Even Iowa City is developing an area into an "old-fashioned" neighborhood,
with the houses close to the street, front porches, and no garages allowed
to be facing the street. Very 1940s-ish. The zoning is very strict, and --
so far -- the concept has proven to be fairly unpopular.

I think most commentators have missed the REAL reason people have "fled" to
the suburbs. It has less to do with crime, and more to do with wanting a
little land. Personally, I look at these beautiful, newly developed homes
and think "nice house -- where's the back yard"?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

East St Louis is one of the scariest places on the planet.

http://www.builtstlouis.net/eaststlouis/eaststl00.html

Interesting. Mary and I stood under the Arch, well after hours, one
summer
night not long ago. Everything was closed and deserted, and we were the
ONLY people there. It was lovely, with a moon rising over the city...
Very romantic.

Then, it started to get creepy, knowing how close East St Louis was to us,
and how totally vulnerable we were. There we were, two dumb white people
with big targets painted on our backs, and we high-tailed it out of there.

The area on the East St. Louis's rivershore is fine, just a couple of
casinio riverboats. Only the area beyond that is nightmare, especially at
night time.


A bittersweet memory. I still remember when most cities were safe to
walk
around in.

You don't feel safe walking around Arch at night time? I thought that this
place was fairly safe, but creepy at night because this place was 'shut
down' like bld said. There is an active night life going on at north side of
Arch (Laclede's landing, etc) I guess you never went there.

--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

You don't feel safe walking around Arch at night time? I thought that this
place was fairly safe, but creepy at night because this place was 'shut
down' like bld said. There is an active night life going on at north side
of
Arch (Laclede's landing, etc) I guess you never went there.

Actually, that's where we high-tailed it *to*...

Yeah, all those trees and shrubs around the Arch -- so beautiful in the
daytime -- sure make you feel vulnerable at night. Too many places to hide.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Toks Desalu" wrote in message
news:0pbhf.9479$%Z5.4071@trndny07...
The area on the East St. Louis's rivershore is fine, just a couple of
casinio riverboats.

That would be West East St. Louis?

Only the area beyond that is nightmare, especially at
night time.


That would be East East St. Louis?

If they mention East St. Louis, then I would agree with that assesment
without a question. You DO NOT want to set your foot in this town. Keep this
in mind that East St.Louis IS NOT a part of St. Louis. East St. Louis belong
to Illinois, not Missouri. That is a separate city. Don't get confused with
that.

--
Toks Desalu
PP-ASEL
Dyin' to Soar
"Ben Smith" wrote in message
...
I spent most of my life in St. Louis. Personally, I don't understand why
St.Louis was selected as one of the most dangerous cities. I have seen
the
good side and the bad side of this town. I considered the Southside of
Chicago, and several towns near Pittsburgh are more dangerous than
St.Louis. So, I have to say that St. Louis is not as bad as reported by
CNN.
I support this statement based on what I personally have seen.

You'd think they were talking about East St. Louis instead.

I came across this interesting page about ESL:

http://www.builtstlouis.net/eaststlouis/eaststl00.html