Decent into Cleveland

john cop wrote:

Look, I am no atmospheric expert, but the above is just a plain silly
statement (less charitable types might say stupid). What do you think
happens to all that energy? It ALL get reflected back into space?

If you think about the characteristics of glass in the visible spectrum, and
consider that clouds behave similarly in the infrared, you might be a little
more charitable.

Here's another picture to look at:

http://www.nws.noaa.gov/sat_tab.html

Bob Gardner

"john cop" wrote in message
om...
"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
news:GwAhb.535167$cF.206989@rwcrnsc53...
Look at any text on the atmosphere and you will learn that temperature
decreases with altitude, cloud cover not withstanding (absent an
inversion).
The sun does not heat clouds.

Look, I am no atmospheric expert, but the above is just a plain silly
statement (less charitable types might say stupid). What do you think
happens to all that energy? It ALL get reflected back into space?

Clouds, which you should know even from just from watching the weather
on TV, are insulators of sorts. This means that the sun's energy (the
part that doesn't get reflected) get absorbed by the cloud as it is
transmitted through it. If were an ideal insulating situation, the
temp gradation would be linear, but, obviously, its not (gas laws and
all that), but the principle is the same. My bet is the energy
transfer to the clouds is greatest at the tops and reduces with
altitude according to some unknowable (too many variables) function.
If your statement were correct, the temp at the tops would be the same
during the day as during the night which is, I think, silly. This
does not mean the temp is going to rise as you climb (gas laws again).
What is does mean is that the cloud's capacity to absorb moisture (or
supper cooled stuff) very near the tops could be substantially greater
than near the bottoms.

I'm currently inactive also....
Same thing happened to me about the same time same place almost same
airplane! I had a M20-E (super). I don't think we had all the training and
information that's available today. Much had to be learned by doing.
I recall one night leaving Boston on a snowy night around 11 PM. I got a
weather brief from the FSS and filed.. They told me there was an inversion
with altitude. After taking off I felt uncomfortable with the snow because
of the St. Elmo's effect. I saw the glowing arc from the propeller and the
arcing on the windshield so I requested and got another higher
altitude(7000) from Boston center. This put me into solid cloud cover with
34 deg OAT. After 5 minuets or so I noticed my airspeed slowing. I looked at
the wings with my flashlight and saw ice building. I then requested a higher
altitude (9000). This didn't change the temperature. It only made matters
worse. I heard a howling noise and a bang. My ADF antenna broke off. I
looked again at the wing and saw ice "horns" about 3 inches long building on
my nav lights. I then requested a higher altitude (11000) and applied full
power to start a climb. I couldn't get any higher than 9500 ft or so. Not
knowing what else to do I pushed the prop control into a flat pitch to try
to bend the blades and break any ice off. This must have worked because I
heard some banging and my airspeed came up a little. I told Boston of my
problems and they cleared me to 13000. At that time an Eastern Capt. came
back to me and told me he was at 16000 picking up heavy ice. I told Boston I
can't fly anymore with full power I was descending 200 fpm. and need a
vector to the closest airport. They steered my to Hartford and I made one of
the quickest approaches in my life. I had to land crabbing looking out the
small open storm window on the pilot side because the windshield iced over..
I kept the IAS over 110 in case the ice would spoil the lift. Upon landing
the attendant directing me with his flashlight remarked "Whooeee where the
hell was I? I saw this in books but not in real life!" I had over 3 inches
of ice on the leading edges and the breather was fully blocked. The small
alternate air door automatically opened. I looked up at the sky and it was
perfectly clear. I went through the weather and didn't even notice. I think
in retrospect I should have stayed in the snow. I'm very grateful that I had
a Mooney. Not that It's better, it's just because it got me through it. The
rat at Hartford deiced my plane in their heated hanger and charged me $50
bucks! Since then I never fully believed the FSS I made damn sure I got at
least one pirep and I personally looked at the weather maps before leaving.
"john cop" wrote in message
om...
Have been inactive for many years.

About 20 years ago, when flying up from the south, I got suckered in.
The tops slowly rose untill I was flying at over 15,000 (Mooney 201)
near Cleveland, It was clear on top and the temp was in the mid 40s
on the ground, and the freezing level was high enough so I wasn't
worried.

When cleared for decent, ice formed at an incredible rate - must have
picked up over an inch of rime in seconds near the tops. Once below
the sun heated top layer, the accumulation virtually quit. Breaking
out below at about 4,000, the temp was already well above freezing,
but no ice was dissapearing.

While being vectored into the approach, I ran some test to make sure
the plane was behaving normally and was capable of climbing. On hind
site, I should have refused the approach clearance and waited for the
ice to fall off.

Anyhow, after having read accounts about people stalling on final and
etc., I brought her in about 20 knots fast over the numbers and
chopped everything. I damn near overran a 5,000 ft. runway - the
sucker didn't want to land.

Rime ice, I have since found, can lower the stall speed (raises the
dragg). It increases the leading edge of the wing. This was verified
by test I did for a senior project in a wind tunnel using an airfoil,
rubber cement, and sugar. The Reynolds number was way off for that
test, so it could be suspect. However, I had occassion to take to one
of the crew of the icing planes over at NASA who confirmed all this
and it sure would account for my landing problem above.

Anyhow, after parking the plane, ice was still falling off in big
chunks for 10 or 15 min.




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