Knee Jerks

Arketip wrote:

Matt Whiting wrote:
buttman wrote:

is crashing not a part of piloting?

Not if you are a good pilot.

Matt

So, you are saying that all the pilots that had a crash are bad pilots?

How about this: Can one be a bad pilot who has never crashed?

--
Peter

"Arketip" wrote in message
...
So, you are saying that all the pilots that had a crash are bad pilots?

They were certainly bad pilots at the time of the crash.

I would have distinguished between "good pilot" and "good piloting". Even
good pilots are guilty of bad piloting at times. But that does not mean
that crashing is part of (good) piloting.

Pete

wrote in message
ups.com...
Why is it everytime someone posts an accident, there are those who
quickly make a decision or pronouncement that it was stupid, or the
pilot was a moron, or, etc, etc, and never have a clue as to the real
happenings?
Why does it take well trained professional crash investigators to do a
full investigation that may last several weeks, months, years, to
determine what happened when they could just take a quick look here and
see what the "experts" have to say?
There have been several crashes in recent days which is disturbing as
hell to me and they have been well publicized. In nearly all of these
crashes, there have been eye witnesses who breathlessly describe what
they saw, or THINK they saw and the media laps it up as if it were
gospel. Often the witness can't tell the difference in a Cessna and a
Piper or a JetRanger. Then, to make matters worse, there are those
amatuers, and a few more pros, who make immediate pronouncements as to
what happened and who is to blame.
I have been guilty of making statements in the past that turned out to
be only partly right because I didn't have all the facts. In 50 years
of flying I've learned that if you aren't in the airplane or ar not
doing the flying, or are not looking right at the action with a
professional eye, why make a fool of yourself with knee jerk
statements?
Dudley, if you are still here, what do you think? You've been around
long enough and have been to enough crashes to have some ideas on the
subject.
Rocky

Those of us like you and me and others like us who have been in the
professional end of the community for any length of time usually tend to shy
heavily away from the accident speculation business, as we know from actual
experience how often the cause of an accident turns out to be something
other than the obvious.
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote:
Those of us like you and me and others like us who have been in the
professional end of the community for any length of time usually tend to shy
heavily away from the accident speculation business, as we know from actual
experience how often the cause of an accident turns out to be something
other than the obvious.

May be wrong, but it's human nature to speculate...especially when
*some* of the initial reports of the circumstances/events leading up to
them read like connect-the-dots illustrations.

In article ,
unicate says...


May be wrong, but it's human nature to speculate...especially when
*some* of the initial reports of the circumstances/events leading up to
them read like connect-the-dots illustrations.

Speculation is natural, and probably productive, as it makes us think about the
accident process. When you see it happen to someone well trained, in well
conceived equipment, often described by peers as a cautious and concientious,
then it may get you to think "it could have been me. . ."

What's important (and sometimes forgotten) is to be sensitive to the situation,
as some people are suffering through a real tragedy at that moment. If some
family member were to browse to an aviation group looking for answers, only to
read that the pilot must have been an idiot . . .

I think the real knee-jerk, though, is often a defensive reaction. Accidents
give very bad publicity to aviation, and knees jerk all over the place,
particularly anti-aviation knees. Fortunately, injuries to "innocents" on the
ground are exceedingly rare - otherwise airports would be closing at a much
faster rate than they currently are.

Developers with greedy eyes set on airport properties have very sensitive
knees.

Greg

What's important (and sometimes forgotten) is to be sensitive to the
situation,
as some people are suffering through a real tragedy at that moment. If
some
family member were to browse to an aviation group looking for answers,
only to
read that the pilot must have been an idiot . . .

Sadly, that's a product of the anonymity of Usenet (for many), and the
general decline in public decorum.

Across society, manners have become uncommon.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 12:57:33 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote in
1tkIf.798152$xm3.724032@attbi_s21::

Across society, manners have become uncommon.

It starts at the top:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Jun24.html
"**** yourself," said the man who is a heartbeat from the
presidency.

As it happens, the exchange occurred on the same day the Senate
passed legislation described as the "Defense of Decency Act" by 99
to 1.


http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/24/cheney.leahy/
Cheney is the former CEO of Halliburton, and Democrats have
suggested that while serving in the Bush administration he helped
win lucrative contracts for his former firm, including a no-bid
contract to rebuild Iraq.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in620517.shtml
Halliburton took in $3.6 billion last year from contracts to serve
U.S. troops and rebuild the oil industry in Iraq. Halliburton
executives say the company is getting about $1 billion a month for
Iraq work this year.

In March, the Pentagon said it plans to withhold about $300
million in payments to the company because of possible
overcharging for meals served to troops in Iraq and Kuwait.

Halliburton's other problems include allegations of a kickback
scheme by two former workers in Kuwait that prompted Halliburton
to reimburse the Pentagon $6.3 million; faulty cost estimates on
the $2.7 billion contract to serve troops in Iraq, including
failing to tell the Pentagon that KBR fired two subcontractors;
and a separate audit that accused KBR of overcharging by $61
million for gasoline delivered to serve the civilian market in
Iraq last year. Halliburton has said the charges were proper.

Halliburton paid $2 million in 2002 to settle charges it inflated
costs on a maintenance contract at now-closed Fort Ord in
California.

Federal authorities also are investigating whether Halliburton
broke the law by using a subsidiary to do business in Iran,
whether the company overcharged for work done for the Pentagon in
the Balkans and whether it was involved in an alleged $180 million
bribery scheme in Nigeria. The company admitted in 2003 that it
improperly paid $2.4 million to a Nigerian tax official.

Previous reports indicate Halliburton studied the possibility of
privatizing Pentagon contracts when Cheney was defense secretary,
then was awarded one of the first private deals. Cheney became CEO
after leaving the Pentagon.

A financial disclosure form obtained by CBSNews.com indicates that
Cheney received deferred income from the firm after becoming vice
president.

G Farris wrote:
What's important (and sometimes forgotten) is to be
sensitive to the situation, as some people are suffering
through a real tragedy at that moment. If some family
member were to browse to an aviation group looking
for answers, only to read that the pilot must have been
an idiot . . .

ICAM that the human nature speculation after an accident, when trying to
put the pieces together, should be done constructively and with respect.
But as you said, much of the speculation comes out of trying to learn
from the event and what is known about it, so we don't make the same
mistake. For that reason, I think speculation and the offshoot
discussions that arise from it can be a very beneficial thing...sounds
overly dramatic, but the resultant thinking and conversation might save
someone else.

Dudley Henriques wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Why is it everytime someone posts an accident, there are those who
quickly make a decision or pronouncement that it was stupid, or the
pilot was a moron, or, etc, etc, and never have a clue as to the real
happenings?
Why does it take well trained professional crash investigators to do a
full investigation that may last several weeks, months, years, to
determine what happened when they could just take a quick look here and
see what the "experts" have to say?
There have been several crashes in recent days which is disturbing as
hell to me and they have been well publicized. In nearly all of these
crashes, there have been eye witnesses who breathlessly describe what
they saw, or THINK they saw and the media laps it up as if it were
gospel. Often the witness can't tell the difference in a Cessna and a
Piper or a JetRanger. Then, to make matters worse, there are those
amatuers, and a few more pros, who make immediate pronouncements as to
what happened and who is to blame.
I have been guilty of making statements in the past that turned out to
be only partly right because I didn't have all the facts. In 50 years
of flying I've learned that if you aren't in the airplane or ar not
doing the flying, or are not looking right at the action with a
professional eye, why make a fool of yourself with knee jerk
statements?
Dudley, if you are still here, what do you think? You've been around
long enough and have been to enough crashes to have some ideas on the
subject.
Rocky


Those of us like you and me and others like us who have been in the
professional end of the community for any length of time usually tend to shy
heavily away from the accident speculation business, as we know from actual
experience how often the cause of an accident turns out to be something
other than the obvious.
Dudley Henriques

And, fortunately, those of you who have been in the professional end of
the community also abstain from posting in this ng every accident that
you hear about. And for that many of us are grateful!

Unfortunately, the amateurs likely will keep posting accidents and the
amateur commentators will keep speculating...

Matt

Matt Whiting wrote in
:

Dudley Henriques wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Why is it everytime someone posts an accident, there are those who
quickly make a decision or pronouncement that it was stupid, or the
pilot was a moron, or, etc, etc, and never have a clue as to the real
happenings?
Why does it take well trained professional crash investigators to do
a full investigation that may last several weeks, months, years, to
determine what happened when they could just take a quick look here
and see what the "experts" have to say?
There have been several crashes in recent days which is disturbing as
hell to me and they have been well publicized. In nearly all of these
crashes, there have been eye witnesses who breathlessly describe what
they saw, or THINK they saw and the media laps it up as if it were
gospel. Often the witness can't tell the difference in a Cessna and a
Piper or a JetRanger. Then, to make matters worse, there are those
amatuers, and a few more pros, who make immediate pronouncements as
to what happened and who is to blame.
I have been guilty of making statements in the past that turned out
to be only partly right because I didn't have all the facts. In 50
years of flying I've learned that if you aren't in the airplane or ar
not doing the flying, or are not looking right at the action with a
professional eye, why make a fool of yourself with knee jerk
statements?
Dudley, if you are still here, what do you think? You've been around
long enough and have been to enough crashes to have some ideas on the
subject.
Rocky


Those of us like you and me and others like us who have been in the
professional end of the community for any length of time usually tend
to shy heavily away from the accident speculation business, as we
know from actual experience how often the cause of an accident turns
out to be something other than the obvious.
Dudley Henriques

And, fortunately, those of you who have been in the professional end
of the community also abstain from posting in this ng every accident
that you hear about. And for that many of us are grateful!

Unfortunately, the amateurs likely will keep posting accidents and the
amateur commentators will keep speculating...

Matt

So we should not discuss this??? I'm a student pilot, but I find the
speculation, discussion of accidents very productive...

No, we should not instantly label every pilot an idiot, but how many
lives can one post and discussion here about an alleged "idiot" save??

How many pilots who read about a few guys with dry tanks who bought it,
might be a bit more likely to divert for fuel rather than "push it"....
just one example....

As far as I'm concerned, speculate away! (with reasonable respect....)
--
-- ET :-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams