ASK 21 spin ballast installation

I'll be blunt here, and for that I make no apologies,
if you are not capable of running a safe and informative
basic lesson in a spinnable trainer, you do not have
the skills to be an instructor, and if you would not
trust your pupil to be safe in that same trainer on
their first solo, you have not done your job as an
instructor.

Jamie, I agree.

The standard at the club I learned at was to only teach spin recognition and
recovery. We have Bergfalkes for trainers, with post solo types getting advanced
training in a Blanik L13.

Consider this scenario:

The Bergfalke will theoretically spin, although we do not permit intentional
spins in them. Bloggs has made the old 1956 'III shudder and shake at 56km/h
indicated and the yaw string all over the place 'thermalling' in training.
Without an aerobatic entry, she simply refuses to even enter an incipient spin.

Bloggs is a little ham fisted but gets sent solo after a couple of demonstrated
incipient recoveries in the L13.

A couple of months later Bloggs is flying at a different club, or with a K13 and
a hoary old CFI. Said CFI is well endowed with large amounts of RLC (Rat Like
Cunning) and a wicked sense of humour. Or Bloggs gets to fly with me, who
learned something from such a CFI. So Bloggs gets to do a check flight and is
swanning about a little sloppily, but perfectly safely. CFI gets Bloggs to
initiate a gentle turn and distracts him while surreptitiously moving the trim
lever back. Then the speed bleeds off and the "reasonably coordinated" turn is
now over ruddered. People are suggestible so - At the precise/appropriate moment
the instructor only has to complain pointedly about the yaw string, while
mentioning too little bank as the problem (as opposed to too much rudder) and
Bloggs does the rest. Mind goes, observe yaw string is in the outside corner,
leave the rudder where it is, and apply copious into turn aileron.

If you have timed it right the down going aileron stalls the outside wing, yaws
the nose up and you enter a spin around the outside wing. The root of which is
now partially in the lee of the fuselage, so the stall is over a large part of
the wing. This can be quite violent, even in a K13.

Bloggs has just learned you don't have to be cross controlled to spin, and that
you don't automatically apply rudder opposite to the direction you were turning,
unless you like the earth to rotate like that...

This is in a "docile" trainer.

This works best low down where the horizon is higher, or where you can make the
turn towards rising ground, so that Bloggs tends to raise the nose to keep the
apparent attitude constant. Unfamiliar terrain, or aircraft or other
distractions make it easier.

Our instruction patter emphasises well banked turns near the ground. The theory
being that there is less chance of a spin entry, and the recovery is much
quicker. All this is true, but the exercise above demonstrates that the pilot
who has set it up wrong can kill himself correcting a poorly executed low turn.

Good thing to be exposed to some instructors who know how to teach full spins
and recovery. That way you get to learn to think about recovery from the context
- aircraft type and configuration (C of G flaps? flapperons? ballast? engine
out? airbrakes?)
- meteorology (wind gradient? turbulence/rotor? curl over? ice?)
- how you entered the spin. (aerobatic? slow turn? thermalling? from level?)
- how the aircraft is spinning (flat? vertical? inverted? unstable?)

There are more but you get the idea.

The permutations all make the recovery different, best to know how to do this
before you are gyrating earthward...

I will never understand people who think it is sufficient to teach a single,
artificial incipient spin entry and recovery mode. Instructors should do a
propper job of teaching.

I am not personally particularly fond of spinning but I have made a point of
being as proficient as I can be in the types I fly. With understanding comes
safety. Put another way -- That way other people tend to be less nervous of you
being above them in a gaggle in a Cirrus ;-)

--
Bruce Greeff
Std Cirrus #57
I'm no-T at the address above.

ASK-21 is unspinable.

??? Curious. I have two ASK-21s in Civil Air Patrol, Colorado wing.
While I do not go out of my way to do spins in them, they DO spin.
Recovery is straight forward in the normal way.

One of the ASK-21s came used from the Air Force Academy. It has
the weights and mounting hardward to "enhance" its spin characteristics.
I have never felt the need to use them... a student pilots practicing
stall recognition and recovery... with crossed controls is usually
able to enter the incipient spin all by them selves!

Best regards,

LtCol Jer/ Eberhard, Colorado Wing Checkpilot (airplanes and gliders),
Assistant Glider Program Manager, Colorado Wing, CAP

--
LtCol Jer/ Eberhard, CO-Wing, Thompson Valley CS., Ft Collins, CO
CELL/VM: 970 231-6325, CELL Message: 9702316325atmmode.com
EMAIL: jeratfrii.com WEB: WEB http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot BM218 HAM N0FZD 240 Young Eagles!

At 09:25 01 March 2006, Stefan wrote:
I forgot to add: Most Clubs I know don't use the tail
ballast to
demonstrate spins to students anyway, but to do primary
aerobatic
training.

One of the wonderful things of the ASK 21 is its versability:
Docile
primary trainer, capable aerobatic trainer, certified
for cloud flying.
One size fits all.


Stefan
(who learnt to fly in an ASK 21, who learnt to spin
in an ASK 21 and
who
gained his aerobatic rating in an ASK 21)

Stefan
Now, you have my attention. Why would you use tail
ballast to instruct
aerobatics? The ASK flys well inverted and will spin
well inverted, all
without tail ballast. Why would you add tail ballast
for loops and rolls?
Sounds almost counter productive.
Chuck

Chuck Griswold wrote:

Why would you use tail
ballast to instruct
aerobatics?

You wouldn't have guessed it: To do simple erect spins.

I am aware that some pilots claim to have been able to spin the 21
without the tail ballast. I'm not among them.

Stefan

Stefan wrote:
Chuck Griswold wrote:

Why would you use tail
ballast to instruct
aerobatics?

You wouldn't have guessed it: To do simple erect spins.

I am aware that some pilots claim to have been able to spin the 21
without the tail ballast. I'm not among them.

Technique that has worked for me in just about every 21 or 103 I've
tried it (and I weigh 95 kg or so):

Establish a stable slip, nose slightly higher than normal, for purposes
of this discussion, left wing down. Apply full left rudder, at same
time move stick fully right and back. No need to jerk the controls,
quick smooth movements are all that is needed. You might have to play
with the slip angle a bit...

Marc Ramsey wrote:

Technique that has worked for me in just about every 21 or 103 I've
....

Thanks, I'll try that as soon as spring is coming. Not exactly the kind
of spin entry you're looking for in an aerobatic program, though.

Stefan

Stefan wrote:
Marc Ramsey wrote:

Technique that has worked for me in just about every 21 or 103 I've
...

Thanks, I'll try that as soon as spring is coming. Not exactly the kind
of spin entry you're looking for in an aerobatic program, though.

True, but it is the kind of spin entry one might be looking at if one is
a bit ham-fisted coming out of a slipping turn to final...

Wear a chute.

I spent alot of time at Estrella in the late 80's. During that time, the
guy who owned the place, Les Horvath, just about spun in a Grob 103. Les is
an extremely talented and experienced acro pilot. He was intentionally
demonstrating a spin while doing a cockpit checkout for a new instructor.
If I am not mistaken, this was the technique he used to spin the 103. The
spin went flat and was not recoverable except by the rear passenger
unbuckling his belts and throwing himself forward over the rear instrument
panel to move the CG. Afterwards he told me personally that he would have
bailed out if he had a chute on. He was that convinced they were not going
to get it unstuck. I think it's just a plain old good idea to wear one any
time this serious of a maneuver is to be attempted.


Mark


"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Marc Ramsey wrote:

Technique that has worked for me in just about every 21 or 103 I've
...

Thanks, I'll try that as soon as spring is coming. Not exactly the kind of
spin entry you're looking for in an aerobatic program, though.

Stefan

At 21:12 01 March 2006, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Stefan wrote:
Chuck Griswold wrote:

Why would you use tail
ballast to instruct
aerobatics?

You wouldn't have guessed it: To do simple erect spins.

I am aware that some pilots claim to have been able
to spin the 21
without the tail ballast. I'm not among them.

Technique that has worked for me in just about every
21 or 103 I've
tried it (and I weigh 95 kg or so):

Establish a stable slip, nose slightly higher than
normal, for purposes
of this discussion, left wing down. Apply full left
rudder, at same
time move stick fully right and back. No need to jerk
the controls,
quick smooth movements are all that is needed. You
might have to play
with the slip angle a bit...

Yep that will work as will sitting a Grob 103 on the
stall buffet and applying full left rudder and full
right aileron and stick back. Will not work to the
right very well because of the asymetric nature of
the Grob rudder and the most you will get from either
technique is half a turn unless the front cockpit weight
is very low. The initial pitch down and roll can be
very dramatic but after that it is very benign.

Don Johnstone wrote:
At 21:12 01 March 2006, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Stefan wrote:
Chuck Griswold wrote:

Why would you use tail
ballast to instruct
aerobatics?
You wouldn't have guessed it: To do simple erect spins.

I am aware that some pilots claim to have been able
to spin the 21
without the tail ballast. I'm not among them.
Technique that has worked for me in just about every
21 or 103 I've
tried it (and I weigh 95 kg or so):

Establish a stable slip, nose slightly higher than
normal, for purposes
of this discussion, left wing down. Apply full left
rudder, at same
time move stick fully right and back. No need to jerk
the controls,
quick smooth movements are all that is needed. You
might have to play
with the slip angle a bit...

Yep that will work as will sitting a Grob 103 on the
stall buffet and applying full left rudder and full
right aileron and stick back. Will not work to the
right very well because of the asymetric nature of
the Grob rudder and the most you will get from either
technique is half a turn unless the front cockpit weight
is very low. The initial pitch down and roll can be
very dramatic but after that it is very benign.



There is a pretty good web site on this topic at
http://ocglider.com/Grob_spin_avis.htm
worth a look.