Vectored past the localizer

"Newps" wrote in message
news:kN7Gb.636826$Tr4.1642464@attbi_s03...

Controllers are required to tell you when you are going to be vectored
across the localizer. If they don't you are required to ask.


Where is that requirement found?

Not safe or legal. The FAA feels so strongly about this you will get
this question on your IFR exam.

Doug wrote:
Several times, while under IFR flight plan and radar services, I have
been vectored to intercept the localizer and the controller was late
in turning me into the localizer. This usually happens when I need
about a 90 degree turn to the localizer. I have decided not to wait
for his vector and just turn. This has always been when the freq is
busy. There is a very small time window to turn (about 15 seconds), so
if the freq is busy, I can't request a turn before I am past, so now,
if this happens, I just turn. I told a CFII this and he said, ok, but
its not really the legal thing to do. I believe it is the safe thing
to do, and therefore legal. Any opinions from the group?

In article %q%Fb.183640$_M.836462@attbi_s54,
Newps wrote:

Not safe or legal. The FAA feels so strongly about this you will get
this question on your IFR exam.

Doug wrote:
Several times, while under IFR flight plan and radar services, I have
been vectored to intercept the localizer and the controller was late
in turning me into the localizer. This usually happens when I need
about a 90 degree turn to the localizer. I have decided not to wait
for his vector and just turn. This has always been when the freq is
busy. There is a very small time window to turn (about 15 seconds), so
if the freq is busy, I can't request a turn before I am past, so now,
if this happens, I just turn. I told a CFII this and he said, ok, but
its not really the legal thing to do. I believe it is the safe thing
to do, and therefore legal. Any opinions from the group?


Better than in a quiet room with several not so happy FAA types across
the table.

--
Ron

Doug wrote:
Several times, while under IFR flight plan and radar services, I have
been vectored to intercept the localizer and the controller was late
in turning me into the localizer. This usually happens when I need
about a 90 degree turn to the localizer. I have decided not to wait
for his vector and just turn. This has always been when the freq is
busy. There is a very small time window to turn (about 15 seconds), so
if the freq is busy, I can't request a turn before I am past, so now,
if this happens, I just turn. I told a CFII this and he said, ok, but
its not really the legal thing to do. I believe it is the safe thing
to do, and therefore legal. Any opinions from the group?

If you've been cleared for the approach, or given an instruction to
"intercept the localizer", then it's OK. If your last vector was
simply a heading to fly, then you should just keep on that heading,
even if it takes you through the localizer.

How is guessing what the controller wanted and then busting your
clearance based on that guess "the safe thing to do"?

bad idea, personally if I am anticipating a turn and have not received it
yet, I will slow down a bit, sometimes they will fly you through the LOC
then turn you back onto it for spacing. that has happened to me. I dont
intercept the loc untill told to. if they give me a heading I fly it
untill told otherwise. you can tell them xxx approaching loc request turn
on to loc?


Doug wrote:

Several times, while under IFR flight plan and radar services, I have
been vectored to intercept the localizer and the controller was late
in turning me into the localizer. This usually happens when I need
about a 90 degree turn to the localizer. I have decided not to wait
for his vector and just turn. This has always been when the freq is
busy. There is a very small time window to turn (about 15 seconds), so
if the freq is busy, I can't request a turn before I am past, so now,
if this happens, I just turn. I told a CFII this and he said, ok, but
its not really the legal thing to do. I believe it is the safe thing
to do, and therefore legal. Any opinions from the group?

There's been at least one case where a controller vectored someone
through the localizer because he'd forgotten him, and they flew into
a mountain. It's best to avoid that. OTOH the other posters correctly
say that just turning onto the localizer without an instruction is
wrong too. The controller should already have warned you if
he is going to fly you through the loc though. I've been flown through
the loc several times, once was for spacing and I was warned, the rest
were all being forgotten (maybe 3-4 times).

My take is this. You need to know the terrain around you. If you're
clear of terrain, just fly the heading, and ask as soon as possible what's
going on... "21Z has flown through the localizer". They'll soon wake
up when they hear that. But if there's the slightest risk of CFIT
then 91.3 applies. If you're headed for the hills (e.g. at San Jose)
and you can't get a word in within 30 secs or so (at spamcan speeds)
then vector yourself away from terrain. They've got you on radar.
But 30 secs is a looooong time, even Norcal 135.4 (Oakland approach)
is rarely solid busy for that long.

Norcal has once vectored me into the hills that were straight ahead of me
for "traffic avoidance". Well, sure, there wasn't any other traffic there.
The U word ("unable") has its place too.

John

"Doug" wrote in message
om...
Several times, while under IFR flight plan and radar services, I have
been vectored to intercept the localizer and the controller was late
in turning me into the localizer. This usually happens when I need
about a 90 degree turn to the localizer. I have decided not to wait
for his vector and just turn. This has always been when the freq is
busy. There is a very small time window to turn (about 15 seconds), so
if the freq is busy, I can't request a turn before I am past, so now,
if this happens, I just turn. I told a CFII this and he said, ok, but
its not really the legal thing to do. I believe it is the safe thing
to do, and therefore legal. Any opinions from the group?

"John Harper" wrote
There's been at least one case where a controller vectored someone
through the localizer because he'd forgotten him, and they flew into
a mountain. It's best to avoid that. OTOH the other posters correctly
say that just turning onto the localizer without an instruction is
wrong too. The controller should already have warned you if
he is going to fly you through the loc though. I've been flown through
the loc several times, once was for spacing and I was warned, the rest
were all being forgotten (maybe 3-4 times).

My take is this. You need to know the terrain around you. If you're
clear of terrain, just fly the heading, and ask as soon as possible what's
going on... "21Z has flown through the localizer". They'll soon wake
up when they hear that. But if there's the slightest risk of CFIT
then 91.3 applies. If you're headed for the hills (e.g. at San Jose)
and you can't get a word in within 30 secs or so (at spamcan speeds)
then vector yourself away from terrain. They've got you on radar.
But 30 secs is a looooong time, even Norcal 135.4 (Oakland approach)
is rarely solid busy for that long.

Norcal has once vectored me into the hills that were straight ahead of me
for "traffic avoidance". Well, sure, there wasn't any other traffic there.
The U word ("unable") has its place too.

I think this is about the best answer I've seen so far. I would only
add that a vector TOWARDS terrain is not the same thing as a vector
INTO terrain. At low alitudes, almost any vector takes you towards
terrain - eventually.

IMO the thing to do is decide in advance how close you're willing to
get to hard stuff, and not get any closer. A corollary to this (as
stated above) is that you must know where you are. Legally, you are
being vectored and the controller is responsible for terrain
avoidance, but that won't mean much to your pax.

The only other point I would make is this - you need not be in the
mountains for this to be an issue. For example, on the West side of
Houston, most of us go to SGR to shoot ILS approaches. For those
playing along on the home game,
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...l/SGR_ir35.pdf

Typically, you get vectors to final at 2000 MSL, and are vectored on
the West side of the localizer. I would give the controller about 2
minutes max after crossing the loc before I took action on my own.
The towers are about 8 miles past the loc on a typical vector, and
some of them stick up above 2000.

On the flip side, SGR is a major reliever, and when the weather is
scuzzy the traffic on the ILS ranges from spam cans to bizjets.
Vectors for spacing are often necessary, and typically the same
controller is working SGR and the airliners going into HOU, so the
frequency gets busy. Deciding to turn in on the loc without being
cleared for the approach is bad juju.

Michael

Doug wrote:
Several times, while under IFR flight plan and radar services, I have
been vectored to intercept the localizer and the controller was late
in turning me into the localizer. This usually happens when I need
about a 90 degree turn to the localizer. I have decided not to wait
for his vector and just turn. This has always been when the freq is
busy. There is a very small time window to turn (about 15 seconds), so
if the freq is busy, I can't request a turn before I am past, so now,
if this happens, I just turn. I told a CFII this and he said, ok, but
its not really the legal thing to do. I believe it is the safe thing
to do, and therefore legal. Any opinions from the group?

It isn't legal to ignore an ATC instruction and it may well not be safe.


Matt

On 23 Dec 2003 09:38:02 -0800, Doug wrote:
Several times, while under IFR flight plan and radar services, I have
been vectored to intercept the localizer and the controller was late
in turning me into the localizer. This usually happens when I need
about a 90 degree turn to the localizer. I have decided not to wait
for his vector and just turn. This has always been when the freq is
busy. There is a very small time window to turn (about 15 seconds), so
if the freq is busy, I can't request a turn before I am past, so now,
if this happens, I just turn. I told a CFII this and he said, ok, but
its not really the legal thing to do. I believe it is the safe thing
to do, and therefore legal. Any opinions from the group?


You and your CFII need to read AIM section 5-4-3, paragraph b.1(b),
which is quite emphatic on this point:

Radar vectors and altitude or flight levels will be issued as
required for spacing and separating aircraft.
begin boldTherefore, pilots must not deviate from the headings
issued by approach control.end bold Aircraft will normally
be informed when it is necessary to vector across the final
approach course for spacing or other reasons. If approach
course crossing is imminent and the pilot has not been informed
that the aircraft will be vectored across the final approach
course, the pilot should query the controller.

So crossing the final approach course alone does not constitute
sufficient grounds to deviate from your assigned clearance. However,
as other posters have mentioned, approach courses are necessarily
close to the ground, so be ready to deviate to avoid terrain or other
obstructions.

Not safe nor is it legal.

If you are 90 degrees to the localizer then you know you should be getting
another heading change to intercept. You usally get your clearance
instructions at the same time as the intercept heading. If you are getting
in close to the localizer, it does not take much time to call ATC and say
"NNN is looking for a turn". This is a very friendly reminder when you feel
that you should have already received your intercept heading and further
instructions.

"Doug" wrote in message
om...
Several times, while under IFR flight plan and radar services, I have
been vectored to intercept the localizer and the controller was late
in turning me into the localizer. This usually happens when I need
about a 90 degree turn to the localizer. I have decided not to wait
for his vector and just turn. This has always been when the freq is
busy. There is a very small time window to turn (about 15 seconds), so
if the freq is busy, I can't request a turn before I am past, so now,
if this happens, I just turn. I told a CFII this and he said, ok, but
its not really the legal thing to do. I believe it is the safe thing
to do, and therefore legal. Any opinions from the group?