Water in our oil, or just alot of hot air?

Morgans wrote:

"Roger" wrote

We must live in different climates.
Here in Central Michigan it's not unusual to find the airplane
"dripping" wet with temperature changes.

I have an garage attached to the house. It's not unusual to find the
cars sweating with temperature and humidity changes. I had to work on
the garden tractor today and the engine is wet from the humidity and
temperature changes. (It's been 100% since last night and rained most
of the day.

I feel your pain! g

NC is like that, at times, also.

Want a good piece of advise? Insulate your garage, put up good insulated
garage doors, and with good seals installed. Run one 8" duct into the
garage from your central heat and air. It makes a huge difference at not
all that much expense.
--
Jim in NC

That's good advice...

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 19:40:10 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:


"Roger" wrote

We must live in different climates.
Here in Central Michigan it's not unusual to find the airplane
"dripping" wet with temperature changes.

I have an garage attached to the house. It's not unusual to find the
cars sweating with temperature and humidity changes. I had to work on
the garden tractor today and the engine is wet from the humidity and
temperature changes. (It's been 100% since last night and rained most
of the day.

I feel your pain! g

NC is like that, at times, also.

Winters are getting a bit warmer, (5 weeks shorter in the last 50
years according to the State of Michigan DNR) and more humidity. That
means we spend more of the year in the 30 to 50 degree range with high
humidity.


Want a good piece of advise? Insulate your garage, put up good insulated
garage doors, and with good seals installed. Run one 8" duct into the

It's already insulated with insulated doors, but I need to add the air
duct.

I'm glad you mentioned that as the duct ends within two feet of the
garage wall. All I need is to add a shutter/valve to the duct, cut a
hole through the 2 X 10 and install a register. It'd probably be a
lot better if I carried it up the wall and over to the center of the
garage, but being lazy I'll be lucky to get it into the garage. Great
idea though.

garage from your central heat and air. It makes a huge difference at not
all that much expense.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 00:47:38 -0400, Roger
wrote:

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 19:40:10 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:

Want a good piece of advise? Insulate your garage, put up good insulated
garage doors, and with good seals installed. Run one 8" duct into the

It's already insulated with insulated doors, but I need to add the air
duct.

I'm glad you mentioned that as the duct ends within two feet of the
garage wall. All I need is to add a shutter/valve to the duct, cut a
hole through the 2 X 10 and install a register. It'd probably be a
lot better if I carried it up the wall and over to the center of the
garage, but being lazy I'll be lucky to get it into the garage. Great
idea though.

garage from your central heat and air. It makes a huge difference at not
all that much expense.


roger site the vent so that it ducts on to the floor and try for
coanda effect to take the blast into the centre area.
I'm sure it can work.

Stealth Pilot

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 18:36:42 -0400, Roger
wrote:

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 00:24:07 -0400, "Peter Dohm"
wrote:

I just watched a program about the huge Oresund bridge between Denmark
and Sweden, and there was a segment about how the corrosion problem for

the bridge was dealt with. Instead of painting, they use sealed
compartments that have the air humidity kept below 60%. This they said
eliminates corrosion. This started me thinking about the corrosion we
aircraft owners are told to guard against, since I have personally been

told by an overhaul shop, that half of all the engines he sees that
need work, need it because of corrosion. There are several "facts" that

I am beginning to question as to their validity. The ones that come to
mind a

1) You have to get the oil up to 180 deg F or the water in the oil
won't evaporate.


2) Starting and ground running the engine for a minute or so is the
"worst" thing you can possibly do.


3) Flying for an hour will "clean" the oil (or at least evaporate the
water, preventing acid formation) so that it doesn't turn to acid and
dissolve the engine while sitting idle.


----------------snip-----------

Blue Skies
Rusty

1) In automobiles years ago, the standard assertion was that you had to
get the engine temp up to 160 degrees for the water to evaporate from the
oil. As it happened, that was actually measuring water temp. 160 degrees
was simply the most common coolant thermostat temperature in those days. So
if the same jack asses are still breathing in and out, they are probably
claiming that 205 degrees is mandatory today.
About all I know for sure about water water condensing into much of
anything is:
a) it almost never happens inside a garage or hangar,

We must live in different climates.
Here in Central Michigan it's not unusual to find the airplane
"dripping" wet with temperature changes.

I have an garage attached to the house. It's not unusual to find the
cars sweating with temperature and humidity changes. I had to work on
the garden tractor today and the engine is wet from the humidity and
temperature changes. (It's been 100% since last night and rained most
of the day.

Current temp is 50F) The weather for the area says 85% but it's
raining with light fog. Of course the briefing I printed out at 3:00
AM says visibility 6, 5000 sct, 10,000 bkn with temp 4 in light rain
and thunderstorms with 5,000 sct.
It's now starting to clear from the west and MOP is showing Vis 10,
1000 sct, 1500 bkn. Most of the afternoon was 1 and 500.

b) an engine covered with plastic and sitting on the ground will
accumulate MASSIVE amounts of water,

We get the same thing in our hangars on the airplanes and engines.
If I went out to the hangar today I'd find the plane dripping. The
temp is dropping slowly. It'll be near the upper 30's tonight.
Opening the cowl would find water droplets on the cylinders and
crankcase.

This is in a well ventilated metal hangar with a concrete floor.

c) a small light object such as a medicine vial with a snap type lid will
accumulate water outdoors in the shade--such as under a patio roof.
As to evaporation, warmer is faster; but if the ambient humidity is
100%, a surprisingly small temperature rise (10 or 20 degrees IIRC) above
ambient will bring the relative humidity inside the engine below 50%.

Also the engine breathes in and out with temperature changes. So
cooling not only raised the relative humidity inside, it brings in
more cool, damp air.

2) I am not an aircraft and engine mechanic. However, I am confident
that running a Lycoming engine to circulate the oil is FAR BETTER than
letting it stand; both for the cylinders and the famous cam and tappets.

If it's going to set long it needs to be protected not ground run
according to the engine manufacturers literature.

If I owned it and was not flying at least weekly, you're damned
right I'd ground run it! Not very long, but enough to circulate the oil and

If you are going to ground run it you want to bring it up to operating
temp. It's the short runs that not only don't evaporate much of
anything they put a lot more *stuff* into the oil as the cold engine
isn't running as efficient as a warm one and the byproducts can
condense inside.

Find a good clean spot on the ramp, let the engine warm up normally.
Then stand on the brakes and wind 'er up for a prolonged run. Of
course then makes the neighbors unhappy.

at least get the temp needle off the peg. If, for any reason I was unable
to run the engine frequently, I would certainly place dessicant packages in
the intake(s), exhaust(s), and crankcase breather.

They usually put desiccants in the plugs and plug off the intake,
exhaust and breathers.

Go into Pioneer Airport and look at the antiques that have the engines
preserved. I've forgotten the term, but at any rate each prop has a
note on it that says "Do not turn prop. Engine has been preserved".

3) Yep, I agree that's an old mechanics tales as well. OTOH, any reason
to fly might bew a good reason.

Might be but both Lycombing and Continental subscribe to it.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

As to the bridge, apparently the Danes and Sweedes haven't shelled one
another across the straights for so long they've forgotten about that. ;-)
In any case, small amounts of surface rust are trivial for a structure like
a bridge; but seriously debilitating inside an engine!

Peter

If you feel the need to get the oil moving in a stored engine, crank
it over with the fuel and mags shut off untill full oil pressure is
acheived, then recharge the battery. Do NOT ground run for short
periods without getting the oil temperature up to dry it out.
Particularly important with top-cam engines, as the cams and tappets
are very prone to condensation induced corrosion failures. And worse
with Synthetic oils than standard petro oils.
*** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***

-----------------snip---------------
If you are going to ground run it you want to bring it up to operating
temp. It's the short runs that not only don't evaporate much of
anything they put a lot more *stuff* into the oil as the cold engine
isn't running as efficient as a warm one and the byproducts can
condense inside.

Find a good clean spot on the ramp, let the engine warm up normally.
Then stand on the brakes and wind 'er up for a prolonged run. Of
course then makes the neighbors unhappy.

at least get the temp needle off the peg. If, for any reason I was
unable
to run the engine frequently, I would certainly place dessicant packages
in
the intake(s), exhaust(s), and crankcase breather.

---------------snip-------------------
If you feel the need to get the oil moving in a stored engine, crank
it over with the fuel and mags shut off untill full oil pressure is
acheived, then recharge the battery. Do NOT ground run for short
periods without getting the oil temperature up to dry it out.
Particularly important with top-cam engines, as the cams and tappets
are very prone to condensation induced corrosion failures. And worse
with Synthetic oils than standard petro oils.

The top cam engines are exactly the problem, which is why I really think we
are going around in a circle. And we are not the first to do so, nor will
we be the last.

In my admittedly limited understanding of top cam engines, the lobes and
tappets are essentially "splash lubricated" in that their coating of oil is
primarily by oil thrown from the crankshaft. In the case of Lycoming
engines, I presume that the intake lobes would receive some oil that could
travel from the camshaft bearings; but I am not convinced that the exhaust
lobes would receive any lubrication at cranking speeds.

Admittedly, there are direct spray modifications available for the Lycoming
cam lobes--according to a bonafide Lycoming Bigot in my chapter who has no
intention of ever flying his airplane at night or under IFR. However, I
have no adea whether the modification is certified under 14 CFR part 33. In
the case of Experimental Category and Day VFR only, presuming that the
modification was part of the original construction, the problem is solved:
just turn off the fuel, crank the engine, and recharge the battery. If the
aircraft is certified under 14 CFR part 23, or if IFR or Night VFR is
included, then my reading of AC 23-11A suggests that the engine as currently
installed is expected be certified and airworthy under 14 CFR part 33 and
the propelled as installed is expected to be certified and airworthy under
14 CFR part 35.

If we simply knew on the last day of good flying weather that it was time to
pickle the engine for the off season, the solution would be pretty simple.
However, other posts in the thread have elaborated that this is not
necessarily the case, and in fact the issue of preserving the engine is
likely to come up at the least opportune time. I admit that part of the
foregoing point escaped my attention as well, and I stand corrected.
Engines do breath in and out with changes in both temperature and barometric
pressure, and a ground run in the rain was really not a recommendation.

Peter

Disclaimer: this is not my occupational specialty and I don't recall why I
happened to read AC 23-11A. Also, if your airplane is registered outside
the US, different rules apply. Also, this is entirely redundant as you
already know by reading the thread; however everyone should go back and read
it again.
Alternate Manager of Duplication
The Depeartment of Redundancy Department

Admittedly, there are direct spray modifications available for the Lycoming
cam lobes--according to a bonafide Lycoming Bigot in my chapter

We're buying three Lyc Factory overhauls this spring (O-320) and the
dealer tells me that Lycoming has come up with a roller tappet and cam
to match. The case is different, to make room for the extra machinery.
It's an option right now, apparently. I imagine they'll try to convert
the fleet. The roller tappet is likely in response to scuffing issues.
We haven't had any problem with scuff for years, since we started using
an oil with the additive Lycoming recommends (Aeroshell 15W50).

Dan

("Roger" wrote)
Go into Pioneer Airport and look at the antiques that have the engines
preserved. I've forgotten the term, but at any rate each prop has a note
on it that says "Do not turn prop. Engine has been preserved".


Pickled? Fogged?


Montblack

"Montblack" wrote in message
...
("Roger" wrote)
Go into Pioneer Airport and look at the antiques that have the engines
preserved. I've forgotten the term, but at any rate each prop has a
note
on it that says "Do not turn prop. Engine has been preserved".


Pickled? Fogged?


Montblack

I never personallhy heard of Fogged, but I know that Pickled was a common
term.

Peter

("Peter Dohm" wrote)
Pickled? Fogged?

I never personallhy heard of Fogged, but I know that Pickled was a common
term.


Fogging oil for "winterizing" an engine. Spray it in the spark plug holes.

http://www.pennzoil.com/products/mar...gging_oil.html

http://www.seafoamsales.com/deepCreepTech.htm
DEEP CREEP Engine Fogging - scroll to the middle


Montblack

wrote:

Concerning fact #1...Why does someone think that the water has to be
brought to a boil before it will evaporate. Water evaporates very well
even at sub-freezing temperatures,much less at the warm to hot temps
created in a running engine. And at say 140 F, I can't help but believe

that any water or moisture in the engine will be purged quickly.

Keep in mind where most of the water is coming from, Rusty. Burning gas
produces carbon dioxide and .... WATER. Look at the tailpipes in winter
as you make your morning commute. You'll see water dripping from many
mufflers.

The one hour at 180 degree mark isn't magic. It's just a good point
where you can be sure that the engine has boiled off most of the water
that it collected while warming up. Also keep in mind that the oil is
trying to evaporate the water from an open pan. The engine is mostly
closed up and it has to circulate that oil through several times to get
all the water out (while more is being push back in).

--
This is by far the hardest lesson about freedom. It goes against
instinct, and morality, to just sit back and watch people make
mistakes. We want to help them, which means control them and their
decisions, but in doing so we actually hurt them (and ourselves)."