Continuous Closed Traffic Approved

interesting... so the traffic count rules have changed since I was in ATC

every takeoff and landing was one each.. (even a low approach got 1/2 a
count)

multiple pattern operations counted every time around

I left KGFK (KRDR) in 1991... so I did not remember the "weather tower"

BT

"Newps" wrote in message
...


BTIZ wrote:



I doubt there is a play station in the tower cab, but he's got weather
observations to record,

There's a weather observer for that, they're in the small tower at GFK.


plus other administrative papers,

There's none.


plus logging every
landing for his traffic count.

When the controller clears you for multiple operations like that he can't
count each one. You could stay up for an hour, that's a two count.


His pay is based on traffic count.. every
landing and departure you make counts.. he does not want to miss one.

Which is why he should give you separate clearances.

Does anyone have factual or approximate
figures on how much GA traffic has changed in the last few
months/years?

I have no factual data, other than my own observations.

1. Mary and I are observing measurably less traffic in the skies and on
the ground when we fly. We usually fly twice per week, and we spread
our flying around to many GA airports throughout (most often) Iowa and
Wisconsin (sometimes Minnesota, Missouri and Illinois, too) -- and we
see/hear far fewer planes.

2. Perhaps more of a solid number: We're seeing far fewer fly-in
guests at our hotel, even though overall business is up. GA pilots
have always been a small percentage (5%) of our business, but it's way
down from even that level thus far in 2006.

3. Perhaps even more of a solid number. One of the two guys in our
favorite on-field repair shop has sold his share and quit the business.
Part of this was for personal reasons, but mostly it was because there
just isn't enough business to make it profitable. If it weren't for
the remaining guy's interest in building his own airplane, I don't
think he'd still be around, either.

It's all getting scary.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

I doubt there is a play station in the tower cab,

Actually, I'm told that there is, though it may be Nintendo. They're
all the same to me. ;-)

Thanks for the info.

BTIZ wrote:

interesting... so the traffic count rules have changed since I was in ATC

every takeoff and landing was one each.. (even a low approach got 1/2 a
count)

multiple pattern operations counted every time around

I left KGFK (KRDR) in 1991... so I did not remember the "weather tower"

BT

I was at GFK from March 89 until December 92. The weather tower was the
old ATC tower and was taken over by the weather guys as soon as the
controllers moved into the current tower and that was before I got there
in 89. Were you at GFK, RDR or the RAPCON?

I was at GFK from March 89 until December 92. The weather tower was the
old ATC tower and was taken over by the weather guys as soon as the
controllers moved into the current tower and that was before I got there
in 89. Were you at GFK, RDR or the RAPCON?

I was at RDR, Flying B-1B, I would come over to GFK and rent Cessna's every
once in a while for fun.

BT

It's all getting scary.

You know, I had hoped that the Sport Pilot rage would help re-light a fire
in GA for the general public. But in my last trip to OSH, I was looking at
all the "Sport Pilot ready" planes (this was pre-release of the SP
rating/cat). Hoping to see where an average person could buy a plane for
the price of a really nice bass boat, I was definitely disappointed.

The cheapest Sport plane I saw there was still over $60k. Now, I know the
manufacturers have to make a profit (or at least pay the bills) and that
most of them will do good to sell 30 planes a year, but geez. You're note
going to attract a bunch of new interest at that kind of price tag. The
money is out there (look at the Harley Davidson craze of late) for people to
spend, but once you get past the $30-$40k range, you're outpricing the
masses.

We have an expensive hobby/lifestyle. Flying "for fun" is a huge expense
for most of us. I bought a 1967 C172 in September (3 years older than me)
and got a great price (low $30's). But that is for a 40 year old airplane
with issues of it's own.

I don't know what the answer is. Aviation is still an exciting thing for
the public. Airshows still pull in huge crowds. But to get in "the club"
you have to be willing to sink $6000 in training.....and I think most folks
would rather just watch.

IMHO,

jf

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
It's all getting scary.

You know, I had hoped that the Sport Pilot rage would help re-light a fire
in GA for the general public. But in my last trip to OSH, I was looking
at all the "Sport Pilot ready" planes (this was pre-release of the SP
rating/cat). Hoping to see where an average person could buy a plane for
the price of a really nice bass boat, I was definitely disappointed.

The cheapest Sport plane I saw there was still over $60k. Now, I know the
manufacturers have to make a profit (or at least pay the bills) and that
most of them will do good to sell 30 planes a year, but geez. You're note
going to attract a bunch of new interest at that kind of price tag. The
money is out there (look at the Harley Davidson craze of late) for people
to spend, but once you get past the $30-$40k range, you're outpricing the
masses.


I personally think they are marketing them wrong. The makers of LSAs should
promote small clubs where two to four people share the aircraft. That
includes offering such added services as online scheduling for each club
free along with pre-written membership agreements and, of course, help
match-making.

This would bring the price down on these planes to ~$20,000. Which is well
in the range for American's to spend for entertainment/hobby.

On Mon, 8 May 2006 09:49:52 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net wrote in
::

The makers of LSAs should
promote small clubs where two to four people share the aircraft. That
includes offering such added services as online scheduling for each club
free along with pre-written membership agreements and, of course, help
match-making.


Something like that is happening he
http://www.letsfly.org/aircraft.asp#lightsport

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 8 May 2006 09:49:52 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net wrote in
::

The makers of LSAs should
promote small clubs where two to four people share the aircraft. That
includes offering such added services as online scheduling for each club
free along with pre-written membership agreements and, of course, help
match-making.


Something like that is happening he
http://www.letsfly.org/aircraft.asp#lightsport

I've seen that. The problems is it's one dealer or broker doing it. The
manufactures need to lead the way.

("Jeff" wrote)
The cheapest Sport plane I saw there was still over $60k. Now, I know the
manufacturers have to make a profit (or at least pay the bills) and that
most of them will do good to sell 30 planes a year, but geez. You're note
going to attract a bunch of new interest at that kind of price tag. The
money is out there (look at the Harley Davidson craze of late) for people
to spend, but once you get past the $30-$40k range, you're outpricing the
masses.


Some numbers to play with: See what you come up with?

1978 a brand new Cessna 152 cost: $15-20K.
[1981 a new Cessna 152 cost: $21-24K. @ 15-20+% interest rate!!]

http://www.cessna.org/benefits/historical_data/model_histories/sample.pdf

Nice average house in my area cost: $45K - $60K
New average cars were around: $5K-9K Some $4K, some $10K.
New Yamaha 360 motorcycle: $1,200 w/windshield, backrest, roll bar, etc.

[1978]
High school job .................$3-$5/hr
Average "factory" job ......$6-$10/hr
"Good" Union job ....... $11hr-$15/hr

[Roughly]
$5/hr ........10k/year
$7/hr ........14k/year
$10/ hr......20k/ year
$15/hr ......30k/year

Today's L- Sport Pilot plane ................$75-$90K
Medium Home Values (Twin Cities) ..........$240K
"Nice" average home .................................$300K
Average decent job: .........................$40k - $75K
Average HS/College job ........................$7-$11/hr
Average car price: ...........................$15K - $23K

1978 was the beginning of the end for bustling activity at many local
airports, IMHO. After that, interest rates soared, gas prices doubled, "The
Recession" was very real and evil and long, wages did not keep pace with
inflation, housing costs rose faster than inflation, etc.

Then, in the early 80's, the lawsuits started adding real [consumer visible]
dollars to the cost of everything aviation related.


Montblack
High School Class of '78 ...sorry about Disco. Who knew?