Anyone like Mig 29's?

Pugechev's Cobra is indeed an impressive maneuver.

It is however, FWIW, considered as simply that by the United States ACM
fighter community.
The maneuver has absolutely no use in the offensive ACM position, and is
considered suicidal if defensive against a hard core shooter.
Executing a Cobra maneuver while defensive with a hard coming and savvy
attacker at long to medium ranges inside the guns cone creates an instant
tracking solution for the attacker. If executed at closer ranges in an
attempt to force overshoot, it leaves the defender at 0 Ps which is
considered suicide by the general fighter community.......including the
Russians BTW :-))
Also, the airspeed range required by the SU27 to execute the Cobra to a 0 Ps
is severely limited at best by g available, which means that while defensive
and hard turning against a well executed guns run by an aggressive shooter,
the Sue has far better options at it's disposal; options that can force an
overshoot while maintaining maneuvering energy which is vital to survival in
a 3 dimensional ACM arena.
The maneuver is highly impressive from the test community's standpoint as a
demonstration of pitch authority through high angle of attack. Also it
verifies a high degree of inlet flow capability at high alpha for both the
Sue and the Mig 29.
Along this line, it should be noted that the limiter has to be disengaged to
perform a Cobra.
But you're right........it IS impressive to watch. The first time I saw it
done it sure as hell got MY attention :-)))))
Dudley Henriques

"Dave" wrote in message
...
Nice!

Ever watched this aircraft do the "Cobra " ? .. or a tail slide?....
in your face..... at an airshow?

You IMMEDIATELY get a huge respect for the capabilities of the
aircraft AND the pilots...

Dave



On 16 Jun 2006 06:41:21 -0700, wrote:

If you like Mig 29's and Van Halen, you might like this video.

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/M...3441&i=6203031

Hope you enjoy watching.

ps: The explicit warning is not related to this piece.

Correct Dudley!

As an ACM manouver, it's not.... U would be toast..

I have seen a lot of "cool" stuff at airshows, but his "Cobra" went
WAY off the cool scale!..

And then watching that BIG jet falling backwards at a few hundred feet
alt....

There must be a audible "clicking" sound when this dude walks past...


Cheers!

Dave



On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 16:35:24 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:

Pugechev's Cobra is indeed an impressive maneuver.

It is however, FWIW, considered as simply that by the United States ACM
fighter community.
The maneuver has absolutely no use in the offensive ACM position, and is
considered suicidal if defensive against a hard core shooter.
Executing a Cobra maneuver while defensive with a hard coming and savvy
attacker at long to medium ranges inside the guns cone creates an instant
tracking solution for the attacker. If executed at closer ranges in an
attempt to force overshoot, it leaves the defender at 0 Ps which is
considered suicide by the general fighter community.......including the
Russians BTW :-))
Also, the airspeed range required by the SU27 to execute the Cobra to a 0 Ps
is severely limited at best by g available, which means that while defensive
and hard turning against a well executed guns run by an aggressive shooter,
the Sue has far better options at it's disposal; options that can force an
overshoot while maintaining maneuvering energy which is vital to survival in
a 3 dimensional ACM arena.
The maneuver is highly impressive from the test community's standpoint as a
demonstration of pitch authority through high angle of attack. Also it
verifies a high degree of inlet flow capability at high alpha for both the
Sue and the Mig 29.
Along this line, it should be noted that the limiter has to be disengaged to
perform a Cobra.
But you're right........it IS impressive to watch. The first time I saw it
done it sure as hell got MY attention :-)))))
Dudley Henriques

"Dave" wrote in message
.. .
Nice!

Ever watched this aircraft do the "Cobra " ? .. or a tail slide?....
in your face..... at an airshow?

You IMMEDIATELY get a huge respect for the capabilities of the
aircraft AND the pilots...

Dave



On 16 Jun 2006 06:41:21 -0700, wrote:

If you like Mig 29's and Van Halen, you might like this video.

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/M...3441&i=6203031

Hope you enjoy watching.

ps: The explicit warning is not related to this piece.

I haven't heard if Vicktor is still with Sukoi, but he is respected by all
as one of the world's better test pilots.
I was privileged to be included in on the early test flights of the F14A at
Navy Strike Aircraft Test Directorate at Pax River NAS in the U.S. During
this period, one of the Grumman test pilots, Chuck Sewell, was doing high
alpha tests in the Turkey over Long Island Sound. We saw some very
interesting film at Navy TPS from these flights.
Chuck made some extremely high pitch rate inputs on the Tomcat during the
tests that came very close to duplicating the Cobra.......but not quite!! A
highly prized bottle of Jack Daniels goes to the Sue and the Mig 29 on this
one :-)))
Dudley Henriques

"Dave" wrote in message
...
Correct Dudley!

As an ACM manouver, it's not.... U would be toast..

I have seen a lot of "cool" stuff at airshows, but his "Cobra" went
WAY off the cool scale!..

And then watching that BIG jet falling backwards at a few hundred feet
alt....

There must be a audible "clicking" sound when this dude walks past...


Cheers!

Dave



On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 16:35:24 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:

Pugechev's Cobra is indeed an impressive maneuver.

It is however, FWIW, considered as simply that by the United States ACM
fighter community.
The maneuver has absolutely no use in the offensive ACM position, and is
considered suicidal if defensive against a hard core shooter.
Executing a Cobra maneuver while defensive with a hard coming and savvy
attacker at long to medium ranges inside the guns cone creates an instant
tracking solution for the attacker. If executed at closer ranges in an
attempt to force overshoot, it leaves the defender at 0 Ps which is
considered suicide by the general fighter community.......including the
Russians BTW :-))
Also, the airspeed range required by the SU27 to execute the Cobra to a 0
Ps
is severely limited at best by g available, which means that while
defensive
and hard turning against a well executed guns run by an aggressive
shooter,
the Sue has far better options at it's disposal; options that can force an
overshoot while maintaining maneuvering energy which is vital to survival
in
a 3 dimensional ACM arena.
The maneuver is highly impressive from the test community's standpoint as
a
demonstration of pitch authority through high angle of attack. Also it
verifies a high degree of inlet flow capability at high alpha for both the
Sue and the Mig 29.
Along this line, it should be noted that the limiter has to be disengaged
to
perform a Cobra.
But you're right........it IS impressive to watch. The first time I saw it
done it sure as hell got MY attention :-)))))
Dudley Henriques

"Dave" wrote in message
. ..
Nice!

Ever watched this aircraft do the "Cobra " ? .. or a tail slide?....
in your face..... at an airshow?

You IMMEDIATELY get a huge respect for the capabilities of the
aircraft AND the pilots...

Dave



On 16 Jun 2006 06:41:21 -0700, wrote:

If you like Mig 29's and Van Halen, you might like this video.

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/M...3441&i=6203031

Hope you enjoy watching.

ps: The explicit warning is not related to this piece.

Dudley Henriques wrote:
During this period, one of the Grumman test pilots, Chuck Sewell, was doing high alpha tests in the Turkey over Long Island Sound. We saw some very interesting film at Navy TPS from these flights. Chuck made some extremely high pitch rate inputs on the Tomcat during the tests that came very close to duplicating the Cobra.......but not quite!!

Would this fellow be the unfortunate Tomcat test pilot that punched out
on final during a test flight? I don't recall the exact details, but I
saw a program a while back on the development of the Tomcat. One of the
preproduction aircraft was on final to a Long Island airport (Bethpage?
Calverton? Gabreski?) and had a flameout IIRC. Both pilots ejected and
one was lost.

Wasn't Chuck. Chuck went down mysteriously during a takeoff in Connecticut
in a privately owned Grumman Avenger some years back. We still don't have a
definitive answer on what happened to him that day. Best guess is that it
was contaminated fuel.
Your incident sounds like the two Bob's to me. On the second Turkey flight
out of Calverton, Bob's Miller and Smythe had a hydraulic meltdown. They
blew the gear down with the bottles but lost primary hydraulics on final and
punched just as the Turkey headed for the weeds. Both made it!
Miller was killed in 72 at Pax before the airshow.
Dudley Henriques

"Kingfish" wrote in message
oups.com...

Dudley Henriques wrote:
During this period, one of the Grumman test pilots, Chuck Sewell, was
doing high alpha tests in the Turkey over Long Island Sound. We saw
some very interesting film at Navy TPS from these flights. Chuck made
some extremely high pitch rate inputs on the Tomcat during the tests
that came very close to duplicating the Cobra.......but not quite!!

Would this fellow be the unfortunate Tomcat test pilot that punched out
on final during a test flight? I don't recall the exact details, but I
saw a program a while back on the development of the Tomcat. One of the
preproduction aircraft was on final to a Long Island airport (Bethpage?
Calverton? Gabreski?) and had a flameout IIRC. Both pilots ejected and
one was lost.

Dudley Henriques wrote:

Wasn't Chuck. Chuck went down mysteriously during a takeoff in Connecticut
in a privately owned Grumman Avenger some years back. We still don't have a
definitive answer on what happened to him that day. Best guess is that it
was contaminated fuel.
Your incident sounds like the two Bob's to me. On the second Turkey flight
out of Calverton, Bob's Miller and Smythe had a hydraulic meltdown. They
blew the gear down with the bottles but lost primary hydraulics on final and
punched just as the Turkey headed for the weeds. Both made it!
Miller was killed in 72 at Pax before the airshow.
Dudley Henriques

I think I've got that one on a video. Didn't the one pilot and chute go
through the fireball? Looked like WAY too close for comfort.


Matt

They both punched out almost simultaneously as the aircraft gave way in
downward pitch to the loss of the primary hydraulic system. I wasn't there,
but they told me it was damn close.
I lost a friend in almost the same scenario when Joe Howard with the
Thunderbirds punched out of his F4 after a similar failure during the
Transpo show at Dulles in 72. Joe's plane went in right ahead of him and he
was sucked into the fireball. He never had a chance.
It's a tough business.
Dudley Henriques

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Dudley Henriques wrote:

Wasn't Chuck. Chuck went down mysteriously during a takeoff in
Connecticut in a privately owned Grumman Avenger some years back. We
still don't have a definitive answer on what happened to him that day.
Best guess is that it was contaminated fuel.
Your incident sounds like the two Bob's to me. On the second Turkey
flight out of Calverton, Bob's Miller and Smythe had a hydraulic
meltdown. They blew the gear down with the bottles but lost primary
hydraulics on final and punched just as the Turkey headed for the weeds.
Both made it!
Miller was killed in 72 at Pax before the airshow.
Dudley Henriques

I think I've got that one on a video. Didn't the one pilot and chute go
through the fireball? Looked like WAY too close for comfort.


Matt

Dudley Henriques wrote:
They both punched out almost simultaneously as the aircraft gave way in
downward pitch to the loss of the primary hydraulic system. I wasn't there,
but they told me it was damn close.
I lost a friend in almost the same scenario when Joe Howard with the
Thunderbirds punched out of his F4 after a similar failure during the
Transpo show at Dulles in 72. Joe's plane went in right ahead of him and he
was sucked into the fireball. He never had a chance.
It's a tough business.

Yes, that is my recollection from the video. I believe one of them went
briefly through the fireball and the other narrowly missed it. I don't
think they we more than 200' high when they punched out and likely less
than that.

Matt