Grass Strips, Landing Technique, etc.

Jose wrote:
I think one involved an SR-22 (which we had an extensive thread about
recenty) that landed on wet grass, skidded, and then attempted a
take-off and hit trees. However, it then mentioned that the person
had touched down with only 1200' left on a 2700' or so long strip.
I'd hardly blame such an accident on the grass. :-)


Had it been concrete, would the skid had occured? Would braking action
been sufficient to stop in the remaning runway? These are some of the
differences that might be attributable to grass.

Hard to say. Pilots who land that long are also typically landing
pretty hot. Anyone's guess if he'd have gotten stopped on concrete.
Certainly, the braking action is better on concrete than even the best
grass strip, although I've not found stopping on grass to ever be a
problem. If you land where you are supposed to, the additional drag
from grass will stop you just fine with no need for braking. Then
again, I almost never use the brakes when landing in any event. Only if
at a controlled field and the controller asks me to make the first
turn-off. The biggest airplane I've flown in the 182 and I could land
and stop without brakes in less than 2,000' in calm conditions and much
less than that with any significant headwind. I've only landed on one
runway where I felt I had to use significant braking (Marlboro, MA) and
even then, I probably used a lot more than I needed as I got stopped
with a good 500' of runway left. But the visual picture on final at
that airport was simply freaky the first time in. I guess I should have
taken my CFI along. :-)


Matt

In article ,
Orval Fairbairn wrote:

In article
,
Hamish Reid wrote:

In article ,
Matt Whiting wrote:

Orval Fairbairn wrote:
[...]


Yesterday I witnessed a Baron pilot land nosewheel first, porpoise a
couple of times and eventually get control. Several of us there
expected
to see the nosewheel fold and the Baron slide down the runway. Talk
about poor technique!

Your accounts got me to wondering ... how many of you all have actually
seen an airplane nose-over on a grass strip? I've been flying since
1978 at two airports that had grass strips (one had only grass until
just last year). I've NEVER seen an incident on a grass strip period,
let alone one that occurred because of failure to use short-field
technique. [...]

I've seen a grass strip nose-over -- in fact, it occured at Frazier
Lake, the grass strip Orval mentioned early in his post (about the only
conveniently-located trustworthy grass strip around here in the Bay
Area). Not sure what caused it, but I saw it happen from the air, which
was quite a sobering sight, despite the fact that the plane didn't look
too damaged from 2000' up. It doesn't appear to have been put into the
NTSB database, so I guess it was considered a fairly minor incident.

Hamish

We used to "X" out the runway during winter (rainy season) at Frazier
Lake. This did not stop some boneheads from attempting to use the sod,
however. I can remember a number of times that some nonmember left
furrows in the runway. I don't recall, however, very many noseovers,
however.

I always used to wonder if anyone ever landed in the seaplane "ditch"
there by mistake... under certain conditions it certainly looked like a
runway :-).

Hamish

In article
,
Hamish Reid wrote:

In article ,
Orval Fairbairn wrote:


We used to "X" out the runway during winter (rainy season) at Frazier
Lake. This did not stop some boneheads from attempting to use the sod,
however. I can remember a number of times that some nonmember left
furrows in the runway. I don't recall, however, very many noseovers,
however.

I always used to wonder if anyone ever landed in the seaplane "ditch"
there by mistake... under certain conditions it certainly looked like a
runway :-).

When I was there we had a pool going as to when somebody would try that!
On a grey day, the seaplane lane looked like a wet concrete runway --
except for the ducks that lived there!

Matt Whiting wrote:
Dave S wrote:

Matt Whiting wrote:

Your accounts got me to wondering ... how many of you all have
actually seen an airplane nose-over on a grass strip? Matt



For what its worth, I am actually in agreement with you.. in that simply
being a turf strip does not a soft field make. My first solo flight and
quite a few initial flight training hours were done on grass. On a dry,
well maintained field, its a non-event.. and more forgiving than a paved
strip.

Dave

Dave S wrote:

For what its worth, I am actually in agreement with you.. in that simply
being a turf strip does not a soft field make. My first solo flight and
quite a few initial flight training hours were done on grass. On a dry,
well maintained field, its a non-event.. and more forgiving than a paved
strip.

Dave

The local climate and soil conditions, as well as the age of
the established sod, has much to do with the firmness of a grass strip.
Poor drainage and really tight clay soils can be soft most of the time
unless it's dry country. Every grass strip is different. We use a
number of them for training, and we know what to expect at various
times of the year. Springtime, with frost coming out of the ground, is
a good time to leave them alone.
I think more accidents involve taking off from a grass strip by
pilots who are used to pavement. The takeoff roll can be MUCH longer
due to drag of the grass (depending on height, density, type and
moisture content of the grass) and the softness of the soil, and the
airplane is often slid off the end of the runway when the abort comes
too late, or staggers into the air and crashes moments later.

Dan

Dylan Smith wrote:

A firm grass runway for a tailwheel plane is much safer than paved -
it's a lot more forgiving of slight crab angles on touchdown.

And the drag of the grass helps *a lot* to keep the tail where it belongs.

Stefan

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Orval Fairbairn wrote:
Your accounts got me to wondering ... how many of you all have actually
seen an airplane nose-over on a grass strip? I've been flying since 1978
at two airports that had grass strips (one had only grass until just last
year). I've NEVER seen an incident on a grass strip period, let alone one
that occurred because of failure to use short-field technique. I haven't
tried to search the NTSB archives yet. I'm sure they have some accounts,
but it certainly isn't the type of crash that I've either heard or read
about with any frequency.


Matt

I'm with you. I saw one taxi into a drainage ditch - threatened to sue, but
it was a private strip and he did not have permission to land (years ago,
nowdays it would be feasible). One overshot the field and nosed over when he
hit the cattle fence at the end. Saw another nimrod taxi into a hanger, but
that had nothing to do with the grass.

Todd

I agree with you. I flew PT-19's, AT-6's, P-40's. P-51's, 150's 180's
and a few other tail wheel birds (Cub's, Air Knocker's,
Luscombe's,Rearwin JR, etc.). Three pointed ALL OF THEM on grass and
hard surface with no problems.

Have seen a number of so called experts wheel a bird in and loose it.

Big John
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On 19 Jun 2006 08:59:01 -0500, T o d d P a t t i s t
wrote:

Matt Whiting wrote:

Your accounts got me to wondering ... how many of you all have actually
seen an airplane nose-over on a grass strip?

I've seen this. The field was definitely soft - extremely
soft. A week of spring thaw and rain during the week
leaving mud under the grass, then an overnight freeze
producing a hard crust allowing morning takeoffs on the
weekend. Thawing during the day left a weak crust, plane
noses over as wheels sink through into the muck. Fire
trucks ran out and sank through too.

This was not a failure to use soft field technique. Nothing
would have prevented this other than using the hard runway
or landing a couple hours earlier. I've got more landings
on grass than hard surface - mostly tailwheel. I don't
wheel land on grass, (I seldom wheel land on hard either)
and certainly would not do it on a grass runway I don't know
well. I use soft field technique if it's soft. I don't
stop the taxi if the grass is getting long, or at the edge
of a bump to the hard surface, but a normal grass runway
needs no special technique.

In article ,
"birdog" wrote:

I'm with you. I saw one taxi into a drainage ditch - threatened to sue, but
it was a private strip and he did not have permission to land (years ago,
nowdays it would be feasible). One overshot the field and nosed over when he
hit the cattle fence at the end. Saw another nimrod taxi into a hanger, but
that had nothing to do with the grass.

If it is on the Sectional and has an R in a circle, one had better have
permission. If it is not on the Sectional, again, you had better have
permission.

In article ,
T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:

john smith wrote:

If it is on the Sectional and has an R in a circle, one had better have
permission. If it is not on the Sectional, again, you had better have
permission.

I've landed at lots of those "R in a circle" airports, never
with permission (unless it was the second time), and always
got a nice reception. Of course, I always landed without an
engine, and only because it was land there or land in a
farmer's field.

There are examples in US case law where aircraft owners who have landed
at private airfields without permission have had to pay large sums of
money to the property owner to recover their aircraft, disassemble it
and truck it out.