Hand propping - licensed pilot at the controls?

Stache wrote:
snip
Not knowing how to hand prop will get the FAA to look at your
competency and may require you to go through a 44709 re-examination.

If that's true, why isn't hand propping listed in any PTS?

Emily wrote:
Stache wrote:
snip
Not knowing how to hand prop will get the FAA to look at your
competency and may require you to go through a 44709 re-examination.

If that's true, why isn't hand propping listed in any PTS?

I was trying to explain a situation where a person hand propping could
possible get into a situation where someone may take a second look at
you because you did something stupid. So you use a non-certificated
person to help and something goes wrong who is the pilot in command?

So let's move on to the test standards and see what they really say
about hand propping.

FAA-S-8081-14A PRIVATE PILOT Test Standard
C. TASK: ENGINE STARTING (ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3, AC 61-23/FAA-H-8083-25, AC 91-13, AC 91-55;
POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to recommended engine
starting procedures. This shall include the use of an external power
source, hand propping safety, and starting under various atmospheric
conditions.

FAA-S-8081-12B COMMERCIAL PILOT AIRPLANE Test Standards
C. TASK: ENGINE STARTING (ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3, AC 61-23/FAA-H-8083-25, AC 91-13, AC 91-55;
POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to recommended engine
starting procedures. This shall include the use of an external power
source, hand propping safety, and starting under various atmospheric
conditions.

FAA-S-8081-6B CHANGE 1 FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR AIRPLANE
C. TASK: ENGINE STARTING (ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: AC 61-23/FAA-H-8083-25, AC 91-13, AC 91-55, FAA-H-8083-3;
FAA-S-8081-12, FAA-S-8081-14; POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits instructional knowledge of the elements of engine starting,
as appropriate to the airplane used for the practical test, by
describing-
g. safety procedures for hand propping an aircraft.

Maybe we should all review the test standards before we say B.S.

Just one man's opinion.

Stache

Stache wrote
I was trying to explain a situation where a person hand propping could
possible get into a situation where someone may take a second look at
you because you did something stupid. So you use a non-certificated
person to help and something goes wrong who is the pilot in command?

No pilot-in-command is required in order to start (handprop) an airplane
engine. Mechanics do it all the time and have never seen a Pilot PTS.

Bob Moore

Bob Moore wrote:

No pilot-in-command is required in order to start (handprop) an airplane
engine. Mechanics do it all the time and have never seen a Pilot PTS.

Mechanics even start and taxi airliners. G

Stache wrote:
Emily wrote:
Stache wrote:
snip
Not knowing how to hand prop will get the FAA to look at your
competency and may require you to go through a 44709 re-examination.
If that's true, why isn't hand propping listed in any PTS?

I was trying to explain a situation where a person hand propping could
possible get into a situation where someone may take a second look at
you because you did something stupid. So you use a non-certificated
person to help and something goes wrong who is the pilot in command?

So let's move on to the test standards and see what they really say
about hand propping.

FAA-S-8081-14A PRIVATE PILOT Test Standard
C. TASK: ENGINE STARTING (ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3, AC 61-23/FAA-H-8083-25, AC 91-13, AC 91-55;
POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to recommended engine
starting procedures. This shall include the use of an external power
source, hand propping safety, and starting under various atmospheric
conditions.

FAA-S-8081-12B COMMERCIAL PILOT AIRPLANE Test Standards
C. TASK: ENGINE STARTING (ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3, AC 61-23/FAA-H-8083-25, AC 91-13, AC 91-55;
POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to recommended engine
starting procedures. This shall include the use of an external power
source, hand propping safety, and starting under various atmospheric
conditions.

FAA-S-8081-6B CHANGE 1 FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR AIRPLANE
C. TASK: ENGINE STARTING (ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: AC 61-23/FAA-H-8083-25, AC 91-13, AC 91-55, FAA-H-8083-3;
FAA-S-8081-12, FAA-S-8081-14; POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits instructional knowledge of the elements of engine starting,
as appropriate to the airplane used for the practical test, by
describing-
g. safety procedures for hand propping an aircraft.

Maybe we should all review the test standards before we say B.S.

I've had a few pilot type checkrides (including all three you listed
above) and was never ask to handprop anything. Hell, I wasn't asked to
do it on my A&P O&P.

"Emily" wrote in message
. ..
Stache wrote:
Emily wrote:
Stache wrote:
snip
Not knowing how to hand prop will get the FAA to look at your
competency and may require you to go through a 44709 re-examination.
If that's true, why isn't hand propping listed in any PTS?

I was trying to explain a situation where a person hand propping could
possible get into a situation where someone may take a second look at
you because you did something stupid. So you use a non-certificated
person to help and something goes wrong who is the pilot in command?

So let's move on to the test standards and see what they really say
about hand propping.

FAA-S-8081-14A PRIVATE PILOT Test Standard
C. TASK: ENGINE STARTING (ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3, AC 61-23/FAA-H-8083-25, AC 91-13, AC 91-55;
POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to recommended engine
starting procedures. This shall include the use of an external power
source, hand propping safety, and starting under various atmospheric
conditions.

FAA-S-8081-12B COMMERCIAL PILOT AIRPLANE Test Standards
C. TASK: ENGINE STARTING (ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3, AC 61-23/FAA-H-8083-25, AC 91-13, AC 91-55;
POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to recommended engine
starting procedures. This shall include the use of an external power
source, hand propping safety, and starting under various atmospheric
conditions.

FAA-S-8081-6B CHANGE 1 FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR AIRPLANE
C. TASK: ENGINE STARTING (ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: AC 61-23/FAA-H-8083-25, AC 91-13, AC 91-55, FAA-H-8083-3;
FAA-S-8081-12, FAA-S-8081-14; POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits instructional knowledge of the elements of engine starting,
as appropriate to the airplane used for the practical test, by
describing-
g. safety procedures for hand propping an aircraft.

Maybe we should all review the test standards before we say B.S.

I've had a few pilot type checkrides (including all three you listed
above) and was never ask to handprop anything. Hell, I wasn't asked to do
it on my A&P O&P.

Therein lies most of the problem. Not 1 in 10,000 CFIs has a clue how to
hand prop and must think it is a formula for death.

On 8 Jul 2006 19:39:38 -0700, "Stache"
wrote:

I was trying to explain a situation where a person hand propping could
possible get into a situation where someone may take a second look at
you because you did something stupid. So you use a non-certificated
person to help and something goes wrong who is the pilot in command?

Since I fly a J-3, almost always fly alone, and soon found that it was
very difficult to find someone at another field to prop the plane,
propping very early became an issue with me. I had a talk with my
former instructor on the subject, and his advice was: "There are all
sorts of reasons why you don't want this to become an issue."

Solo propping is forbidden at the airfield where I rent the Cub,
especially (as I discovered) when in full view of the cafe deck in
high summer. I haven't had such a tongue-lashing since I left home in
1950. Other airfield managers don't seem to care.

I don't like to have a stranger sitting in the cockpit, so if there's
no one around who claims to know how to prop, I use two chocks on a
line that I can reel into the cockpit once I'm aboard. I also tie down
the tail if that's possible; it usually is. In a pinch I'll ask a
strong man to hold the tail.

The Cub will start at closed throttle when the engine is warm. I put
my left foot on the starboard chock, hold the window frame with my
left hand, and swing the prop with the right, getting a little bounce
out of it first on those impulse thingies, whatever they might be. It
starts the first time, almost every time.

I wait a few seconds to ensure that all is copacetic, then gingerly
duck under the struts, walk to the rear to untie the rope if any, then
very gingerly climb into the rear seat. Once strapped in, I give the
chocks a tug to free them, then reel them in and stow them in my pack
in the front seat.

It is all second nature now; I've been doing it for six years.



-- all the best, Dan Ford

email: usenet AT danford DOT net

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

On the Taylorcraft, I used chocks but never trusted them and kept a
long rope in the plane for tying down the tail in case there were no
convenient tie-down chains.

Swinging the prop properly from the front means you wind up starboard
of the propeller arc and in a position to catch a strut if necessary.
As a practical matter, the T-cart did not develop much thrust at idle.
Even on tarmac, it wouldn't roll.

In 35+ years of flying, I've known four pilots I trusted/would have
trusted to do the cockpit chores while I did the outside stuff. If
somebody wanted to help, I'd have them lean against the tail.

Never tried it on an engine bigger than 65 HP, though I've done the
inside chores a couple of times on a 172 (O-300) while an 80-year old
ATP swung the prop.

Don

I believe that is a Canadian reg. Many people have mistaken that for a
FAR.

-Robert

TRA wrote:
Is there an FAR or other document (Advisory Circular etc.)
that addresses whether a licensed pilot must be at the
controls ofthe aircraft being started when it is hand
propped? I know the FAA may hit the pilot with careless and
reckless if it gets away, but is it legal to tie the tail
down and start solo, particularly when getting gas at a new
airport? There just aren't that many lineboys or other
pilots who are familiar with hand propping,

TRA wrote:
Is there an FAR or other document (Advisory Circular etc.)
that addresses whether a licensed pilot must be at the
controls ofthe aircraft being started when it is hand
propped? I know the FAA may hit the pilot with careless and
reckless if it gets away, but is it legal to tie the tail
down and start solo, particularly when getting gas at a new
airport? There just aren't that many lineboys or other
pilots who are familiar with hand propping,

There is no FAA regulation requiring it, but a surprising number of
local laws require that a licensed pilot be at the controls. There was
a pilot at Boeing Field in Seattle who got ticketed for it a couple
years ago. Also, any airport can have its own rules regarding the
matter, just as they can have rules prohibiting the starting of engines
in hangars, minimum insurance requirements, etc.