Cloud Flying

I fully understood that we were talking IFR Flight.

The only additional requirement I can find for IFR flight in Class G
airspace is that the pilot be instrument rated and Current. Note: that
an airplane instrument rating is valid in a glider.

I was recently flying with a group of 15 glider pilots I believe at
least 3 of these pilots also had instrument ratings.

In Class D & E airspace a Clearance is a also required.

In Class ABC Airspace a Transponder is required with the current
inspections.

I am looking forward to seeing his book on cloud flying, This is
defiently a topic that does not get much attention in the US and as
result there seems to be a lot of misinformation about it as evidenced
by this thread.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL






snoop wrote:
Son, we're talking IFR flight here. Try reading the first post.

Jacek,

I'm anxiously awaiting the article as well! Until it is, though, here
are some tasty morsels:

There aren't any FAR's that clearly say: "To fly a glider under IFR,
you must..." But there are some regs that we can correlate together to
find that, yes, flying a glider under IFR is completely legal. Such
as:

There is no instrument rating available for gliders, as is specified by
CFAR § 61.5(b)(8):

§ 61.5 Certificates and ratings issued under this part.
b) The following ratings are placed on a pilot certificate (other than
student pilot) when an applicant satisfactorily accomplishes the
training and certification requirements for the rating sought:
(8) Instrument ratings (on private and commercial pilot certificates
only)-
(i) Instrument-Airplane.
(ii) Instrument-Helicopter.
(iii) Instrument-Powered-lift.


But, CFAR § 61.3(e)(3) states that a pilot can get certified to fly a
glider under IFR:

§ 61.3 Requirement for certificates, ratings, and authorizations.
(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil
aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums
prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:
(3) For a glider, a pilot certificate with a glider category rating and
an airplane instrument rating.


And, CFAR § 61.57(c)(2) specifies the recent pilot experience needed
to act as PIC in a glider under IFR:

§ 61.57 Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.
(c) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this
section, no person may act as pilot in command under IFR or in weather
conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR, unless within the
preceding 6 calendar months, that person has:
(2) For the purpose of obtaining instrument experience in a glider,
performed and logged under actual or simulated instrument conditions-

(i) At least 3 hours of instrument time in flight, of which 1 1/2 hours
may be acquired in an airplane or a glider if no passengers are to be
carried; or
(ii) 3 hours of instrument time in flight in a glider if a passenger is
to be carried.


Furthermore, CFAR § 61.57(d)(1)(iii) specifies how a glider pilot can
get an instrument competency check:

§ 61.57 Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.
(d) Instrument proficiency check. Except as provided in paragraph (e)
of this section, a person who does not meet the instrument experience
requirements of paragraph (c) of this section within the prescribed
time, or within 6 calendar months after the prescribed time, may not
serve as pilot in command under IFR or in weather conditions less than
the minimums prescribed for VFR until that person passes an instrument
proficiency check consisting of a representative number of tasks
required by the instrument rating practical test.
(1) The instrument proficiency check must be-
(iii) For a glider, in a single-engine airplane or a glider.


As far as inspections are concerned, CFAR § 91.413(a) does not exempt
gliders from the 24-month transponder inspection requirement:

§ 91.413 ATC transponder tests and inspections.
(a) No persons may use an ATC transponder that is specified in
91.215(a), 121.345(c), or §135.143(c) of this chapter unless, within
the preceding 24 calendar months, the ATC transponder has been tested
and inspected and found to comply with appendix F of part 43 of this
chapter.


But the altimeter inspection required by CFAR § 91.411 only applies to
airplanes and helicopters:

§ 91.411 Altimeter system and altitude reporting equipment tests and
inspections.
(a) No person may operate an airplane, or helicopter, in controlled
airspace under IFR unless- snip


Equipment requirements to certify your glider for IFR flight are
determined by the manufacturer, and the FAA. If you certify your
glider with an Experimental Airworthiness Certificate, you will need to
comply with your certificate's limitations, just like any other
experimantal aircraft.


As far as the procedure for receiving your IFR clearance is concerned,
you can use any approved method, there aren't any special procedures
for gliders.


And, FYI, I just visited the Schempp-Hirth factory last week where I
saw a beautiful new IFR-certified Ventus with a US registration. Yes,
it's legal.

Chris Fleming, F2





wrote:

Yeah, IFR it is....I am very curious about that article, will you
include all the FAR's and AIM's for glider flight in IMC? How about
xponder check out every 24 months? How about the instrument rating? Is
one available for a glider? And yeah, how about the clearance? Do you
get a pop-up clearance or , since you are not flying from controlled
airport simply have a void time? I would like to be educated in all of
those aspects.

Thanks,

Jacek
Washington State

Brian, I have my FAR/AIM book open. In part 91, give me the glider
specific regs that tell me how to fly a glider, on an IFR clearance in
the US. I just reread the requirements for an instrument rating, and
nowhere does the word glider show up in FAR 61.65. Shawn, help us out
here.

F2, thanks for your input, but were shaking down the US regs here.


Brian wrote:
I fully understood that we were talking IFR Flight.

The only additional requirement I can find for IFR flight in Class G
airspace is that the pilot be instrument rated and Current. Note: that
an airplane instrument rating is valid in a glider.

I was recently flying with a group of 15 glider pilots I believe at
least 3 of these pilots also had instrument ratings.

In Class D & E airspace a Clearance is a also required.

In Class ABC Airspace a Transponder is required with the current
inspections.

I am looking forward to seeing his book on cloud flying, This is
defiently a topic that does not get much attention in the US and as
result there seems to be a lot of misinformation about it as evidenced
by this thread.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL






snoop wrote:
Son, we're talking IFR flight here. Try reading the first post.

snoop wrote:
Brian, I have my FAR/AIM book open. In part 91, give me the glider
specific regs that tell me how to fly a glider, on an IFR clearance in
the US. I just reread the requirements for an instrument rating, and
nowhere does the word glider show up in FAR 61.65. Shawn, help us out
here.

F2, thanks for your input, but were shaking down the US regs here.


Snoop, those are US regs! What reg are you trying to "shake down?" I
quoted the exact regs that clearly legalize IFR flying in gliders in
the USA.

Chris Fleming, F2

It may take me bit to remember where the actual authorization for a
airplane instrument rating to qualify for a glider rating is.

As a start though FAR 61.57c2 tells you how to remain or get instrument
current for gliders.

Brian

snoop wrote:
Brian, I have my FAR/AIM book open. In part 91, give me the glider
specific regs that tell me how to fly a glider, on an IFR clearance in
the US. I just reread the requirements for an instrument rating, and
nowhere does the word glider show up in FAR 61.65. Shawn, help us out
here.

F2, thanks for your input, but were shaking down the US regs here.

Brian wrote:
It may take me bit to remember where the actual authorization for a
airplane instrument rating to qualify for a glider rating is.

As a start though FAR 61.57c2 tells you how to remain or get instrument
current for gliders.

Brian



Brian,

CFAR § 61.3(e)(3) states that to fly a glider under IFR, the PIC needs
to hold an airplane instrument rating and a glider rating:

§ 61.3 Requirement for certificates, ratings, and authorizations.
(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil

aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums
prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:
(3) For a glider, a pilot certificate with a glider category rating and

an airplane instrument rating.

Chris Fleming, F2

It didn't take me as long to find at as I thought it might:

FAR 61.3e3

(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil
aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums
prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:

(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and
instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane,
helicopter, or powered-lift being flown;

(2) An airline transport pilot certificate with the appropriate
aircraft category, class, and type rating (if required) for the
aircraft being flown;

(3) For a glider, a pilot certificate with a glider category rating and
an airplane instrument rating; or

Brian

It didn't take me as long to find at as I thought it might:

FAR 61.3e3

(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil
aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums
prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:

(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and
instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane,
helicopter, or powered-lift being flown;

(2) An airline transport pilot certificate with the appropriate
aircraft category, class, and type rating (if required) for the
aircraft being flown;

(3) For a glider, a pilot certificate with a glider category rating and
an airplane instrument rating; or

Brian

Good find. That's what I saw, in the same vein, with 61.57, how to stay
current, but the requirements for an instrument rating still leave us
hanging out there, as mentioned earlier. Now we need the operational or
part 91 end of it. How to do it. Hang in there guys, Shawn, c'mon buddy
we need you to help here.

Brian wrote:
It didn't take me as long to find at as I thought it might:

FAR 61.3e3

(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil
aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums
prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:

(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and
instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane,
helicopter, or powered-lift being flown;

(2) An airline transport pilot certificate with the appropriate
aircraft category, class, and type rating (if required) for the
aircraft being flown;

(3) For a glider, a pilot certificate with a glider category rating and
an airplane instrument rating; or

Brian

snoop wrote:
Good find. That's what I saw, in the same vein, with 61.57, how to stay
current, but the requirements for an instrument rating still leave us
hanging out there, as mentioned earlier. Now we need the operational or
part 91 end of it. How to do it. Hang in there guys, Shawn, c'mon buddy
we need you to help here.


Snoop-

What are you talking about?! Ask a specific question! Flying a glider
under IFR is EXACTLY THE SAME as flying an airplane under IFR. That is
why an instrument rating in airplanes is required to fly a glider under
IFR. Here's how you do it:

1. File the flight plan.
2. Receive the ATC clearance.
3. Fly the glider!

If your flight is intended to be local in nature, you request a block
clearance both laterally and vertically, and remain within your
clearance limits. If you are flying cross country, you receive a route
clearance with authorization to deviate up to x miles left and right of
course within a block altitude limit.

If you already have your instument-airplane rating, and a few hundered
hours of instrument experinece, you should already know all of this.
If you don't, then you shouldn't consider flying a glider IFR.

Chris Fleming, F2