The SSA-OLC

Ramy wrote:
Doug, until this post you acted somewhat professionally, but you lost
it.
Here are my responses to your comments, then I'm out of this public
flaim war.
1 - I will email you privately the email. I would not post it
publically. I would never go as low as twisting someone words or take
them out of context. But I probably should have not quote him either.

I received your private email, and an explanation from Reiner Rose
directly. The issue they has was with the notification to the pilot,
not with the position on the FAR's. As I have already explained, the
notification in Ramy's case was delayed by the internal workings of the
all volunteer committee, but was under way. This is all new to us, so
we are trying our best to deal with the issues as the arise. SSA and
OLC are in agreement that all changes to claims require notification to
the pilot.

2 - I have absolutly no idea which flights you are claiming I posted to
Brazil. This is a complete BS. My last flight out of Truckee was on 9/4
and was posted to the SSA- OLC and I haven't been to Truckee since. It
was also the last flight I posted to OLC.

I must apologize to Ramy for this, it was the other pilot who made
these claims from Brazil. When I saw Ramy's post supporting this, I
mistakenly associated it with him.

Doug Haluza wrote:
Also, would you please disclose if you had any contact with KM before
he made the post you so wholehartedly endorsed here.

Doug, I gotta ask, what does this matter?For your info, I have never
had any contact with anyone on R.A.S. exept for Paul Remde when I am
interested in buying stuff , and you with some questions about
OLC.Thanks for the response by the way.My intention here is not to
start another OLC flamerama, it was just to ask around and see if
posting on OLC was worth it with all the infighting and contention
going on.All of the legality issues really dont concern me much. I
think your argument here is really with someone else because I never
took issue with removing illegal flights from OLC.My issue was with the
content of the SSA's OLC portion of the website.
K. Urban

Doug, do you mind exposing your credibility by pointing to us which
flight you are claiming that I posted under Brazil???

Ramy

Doug Haluza wrote:
Ramy wrote:
Excellent points, KM.
I saw a comment from the originator of the olc, Mr. Reiner, that he
"find this development (meaning the fact that the SSA has changed the
rules in this respect)
also very sad".
Yes, you can post under any country and club you wish and bypass the
SSA-OLC. Some of us considering doing it, some already are.
Also you can post any length of flight, there are many who post local
flights as well. And 200-300 miles is not a short flight...

Ramy

Ramy, why don't you post the whole quote in context so we can interpret
it for ourselves, instead of giving us your obviously biased
interpretation. The SSA-OLC team has been in constant contact with the
OLC-i team, including Mr. Reiner Rose, so he is well aware of the
situation, and he has not expressed such reservations to us. I will let
him speak for himself, though.

Also your statement about posting under any country is incorrect. The
flights you made from Truckee that you claimed to Brazil were caught by
the OLC-i admin, and moved back to the US. His email to me indicated
that he was quite annoyed about this. So please stop, and do not
encourage others to do the same.

Also, would you please disclose if you had any contact with KM before
he made the post you so wholehartedly endorsed here.

KM wrote:
So in conclusion, I was hoping the list members could field a couple of
questions, First, if a pilot were to post an ocasional short flight,
say 2 to 3 hundred miles about once a week, is he gonna get laughed at?

Absolutely NOT!

Look at various club statistics (I'm in the Black Forest Soaring
Society) and you'll see a complete spectrum of flight claims. ALL are
welcome. Even flights of less than 50 points, which don't count for
club totals are encouraged, as some clubs may use these for creating
internal contests, etc.

And two, is there a way to bypass the SSA-OLC (and forgo all the
politics and flaming), and just post to the OLC in Germany?

I'll answer the gist of your post here...

The SSA has NOT hijacked the OLC. If the SSA description of the OLC is
missing the entertainment and educational angle, then that is an
unfortunate omission. The intent of the OLC as I understand it is that
it can and does fit many types of pilots. Some are out to score the
most points, while others are out to document their (sometimes
fantastic, but generally modest) flights in a public online forum.

Since this is an open forum, and the SSA is providing some sponsorship,
it just makes sense that it must also, at some level, take
responsibility for its content. It is hoped, and generally does
happen, that individual posters will analyze their flights prior to
submission, and if there is any appearance of impropriety (paticularly
FAR related), then the flight will not be posted. If the pilot wants
to teach a lesson, or expose some personal error, then perhaps the
flight can be posted with appropriate comments and a request of the
sponsor to not include it in overall scoring.

Some sailplane pilots have landed at an airport, and an FAA inspector
just happened to be there, and decided to do a "ramp check". At Hobbs
this year a pilot was reprimanded for not having the required dataplate
nor a copy of the SSA's exemption letter. The next day, copies of this
letter were handed out to a large percentage of the competitors who
knew nothing about this requirement. There wasn't a rush among those
of in compliance to report the others to the FAA. We just made sure
they were now legal.

The current "angst" on RAS has been fueled mostly by a tiny handful of
pilots who feel that ignorance of the regulations is a license to post
and claim flights that break them. These individuals feel that "the
big, bad SSA" is out the "get them". This is not true. They feel that
the SSA must post every FAR, and how it will be interpreted. Hey,
we're all adults here, can read, are generally law abiding, so it's ON
US to be aware if OUR flight is legal or not. If you're not sure, ASK
SOMEONE!

The partner check program is set up in the OLC (worldwide) to allow
fellow pilots to quietly report claims that may need a closer look.
Again, most of the "noise" on other threads has been the result of a
warning posted to RAS about an FAR that some of us don't fully
understand (flying after sunset - which many of us have done in the
past), but because of the presentation in the IGC file, is extremely
easy to validate.

I think your interpretation of the SSA's position regarding enforcement
actions is also misguided. The intent here is that if the IGC file
indicates a FAR violation, and the pilot refuses to withdraw it, and if
the FAA somehow gets involved, "the SSA" will most likely help the FAA
in evaluating the log, and assessing the circumstances of the purported
violation.

Long ago I used to participate in a monthly auto "rally" that took
place on a Friday night. The objective was to maintain a predetermined
speed over various course segments, all typically on residential
streets and within city limits. This average was ALWAYS below the
posted speed limits. However, if one got lost between checkpoints, it
could be necessary to exceed the speed limit. If we would have had GPS
recorders, then these competitors would no longer be able to "cheat" in
this way. Not so long ago, we only had a barograph and camera. There
was no mechanical means of proving what time of day the flight took
place. Now there is, and we just have to live with that.

-Tom

KM wrote:
So in conclusion, I was hoping the list members could field a couple of
questions, First, if a pilot were to post an ocasional short flight,
say 2 to 3 hundred miles about once a week, is he gonna get laughed at?


KM,

I am one of those guys that posts everything over 50 km. I have never had
any negative feedback. I will never be the top point earning pilot;
however, the few point I earn do become part of the Seattle Glider Council
totals.

The SSA-OLC does indeed foster cross-country soaring and the SSA is correct
in not awarding points for flights that violate FAA regulations. Though my
flights are not spectacular the SSA-OLC does also provide me a venue for a
little "show-and-tell." It is a great asset to the sport of soaring. I
really don't understand why a person would have a problem with the SSA
excluding flights that violate FARs. This whole thread seems to be about a
few rebels who think they are above the law and should be rewarded for it.

Respectfully,

Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/N990_Near_Arco.jpg

"KM" wrote in message
ups.com...
I am new to the R.A.S. and I am an aspiraring contest pilot who flys XC
every chance I get,but I have never persued a badge or a contest.I read
with some interest and amusement the thread about the OLC sunset
warning.This inspired me to look up all of the OLC information on the
SSA website.I also looked up the German OLC site.I had heard about OLC
in the past, and had a bit of a clue what it was about, But I never
thought about participating.In my state, we have a active Yahoo group
where pilots post flights during the season.This is not a contest, just
a way to report on the local happenings.I drew alot of insperation from
these flight reports on Yahoo, and I thought it would be of benefit to
some of the local pilots if I posted on OLC.What I found that was
interesting is that the German OLC website states that the OLC exists
for this purpose and to encorage more cross country flights, but the
SSA website made almost no mention of this.And judging by the gist of
most of the comments on the "Sunset" thread the SSA OLC is not for
educational purposes, but much more of a hard core contest.According to
pilots like Eric G and Paul M, the posting of "Look what I did" flights
is discouraged.So this begs the question that if a pilot is not out to
win, why even post a flight on the SSA-OLC? How did the SSA get a
monopoly on the OLC in the US, and why did they change its intent?
Another thing I found during my research on the SSA website was a memo
regarding FARs.It started out with "The SSA is not out to interpret or
enforce FARs" and yet it ends with a statement that the SSA will
partner with the FAA to go after any pilot who violates the regs.This
same kind of mentality is expressed on the "OLC Sunset Warning"
elsewhere on the site.Now let me state that I fly for a living, and I
have every motivation BOTH from a monitary standpoint and a safety
standpoint to follow the regs, but lets say my flight recorder does
something stupid and now I have the same outfit that I pay dues to
HELPING the FAA come after me?

- The SSA and the SSA-OLC committee has never helped the FAA come after
anyone. The SSA-OLC committee has had reports sent to us of flights ending
after dark or at altitudes that break FARs. The pilots that made the
reports thought the flights were not very sporting, not fair competition,
and worse, could make all other glider pilots look bad. The SSA-OLC
committee then did its job and asked the pilots to remove the flights from
this public forum. The SSA-OLC committee (I'm on it) would prefer to never
have to do that.

I think this forum is interesting because, in my opinion, the many pilots
that would never submit a flight that includes an obvious FAR breach are not
speaking up. They are tired of hearing the few outspoken pilots the seem to
be OK with pilots submitting flights that breach FARs. The silent majority
is hesitant to post their thoughts because they fear that the outspoken ones
will rip them appart for their opinon.

I for one am a big fan of the OLC. I am OK with the SSA-OLC committee
asking pilots to remove flights that break FARs. So should every glider
pilot that wants to keep the priveledge of using US airspace. The SSA-OLC
committee shoudn't need to ask the pilots to remove the flight logs that
break FARs, but if necessary, they will. The SSA-OLC committee does NOT go
looking for flights like that. They only look at flights that are brought
to their attention.

I hope most glider pilots will continue to post their flights to the OLC. I
also hope that pilots that break FARs will NOT post their flights on the
OLC.

The bad guys in this are the pilots that submitted flights that break FARs.
Worse yet are the pilots that would not remove them when asked. They are
the ones taking the fun out of the OLC, not the SSA-OLC committee. They are
trying to make the SSA-OLC committee into the bad guys here. They are
shouting loudly and trying to mis-direct everyone. It makes me sick how
they are ruining such a great thing.

Silent majority, please speak up. If you agree that flights that break FARs
should not be on the OLC, please say so here.

Paul Remde

Bizarre
I have a backround as a check airman and safety inspector, and we
looked at rules violations from a standpoint of education and
prevention, not the punitive standpoint the SSA has.
So in conclusion, I was hoping the list members could field a couple of
questions, First, if a pilot were to post an ocasional short flight,
say 2 to 3 hundred miles about once a week, is he gonna get laughed at?
And two, is there a way to bypass the SSA-OLC (and forgo all the
politics and flaming), and just post to the OLC in Germany?
Thanks,
K. Urban

Paul Remde wrote:
I hope most glider pilots will continue to post their flights to the OLC. I
also hope that pilots that break FARs will NOT post their flights on the
OLC.

I think you probably mean that you hope pilots with FAR violations
detectable in the flight log will not post to OLC. It's more about the
appearance of being violation free than actually being violation free.

If I understand the SAA rules for scrutiny of OLC logs a pilot that
flys 1000k in the blue and lands 10 seconds after sunset, an infraction
that would draw no attention from FAA, would be asked to withdraw the
flight. Another pilot that flew 1000k in streeting conditions, and
used the clouds to their best advantage, and landed 10 seconds before
sunset would get full credit for the flight.

The difference between the flights is that SSA can determine sunset
time and landing time to one second accuracy but SSA has no means to
detect proximity to cloud base.

How many people on this group that actually fly long cross countries
believe one of these flights is worth zero points? If so which one?

I am on record at my local club for speaking out about landing long
after sunset but remain a vocal opponent of discarding OLC flights
because of sunset time infractions since neither the means of
determining sunset time at the place of landing, nor the allowable
tolerance between sunset time and landing time, is defined.

If, and when, SSA decides to define these be sure to also specify the
maximum allowable logger interval for SSA OLC flights as well. I
currently run at 2 second interval but that obviously exposes me to far
more scrutiny than if I ran at the slowest allowable rate.

Andy

Andy wrote:
The difference between the flights is that SSA can determine sunset
time and landing time to one second accuracy but SSA has no means to
detect proximity to cloud base.

Andy, this is where the partner check comes in. At least one flight
under discussion had a landing over a half hour after sunset - not 10
seconds. The USNO (http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneDay.html)
only provides data to the nearest minute.

We certainly COULD penalize the person landing "10 seconds" after
sunset, but I think most OLC participants would allow it to be scored.
As to where to draw the line, that will, IMO, have to be handled on a
case by case basis.

As has been said elsewhere, a few anti-establishment nit-pickers are
trying to force the OLC to set hard, deterministic rules for every
aspect of the flight. They are spoiling the fun for everyone else by
complaining and demanding these rigorous rules (think Olympics, etc.).
The rest of us are happy with reasonable fudge factors being applied to
the flights. And "reasonable" will always be a variable open to
interpretation.

If I happen to examine a flight with a few bumps above 18K, I'll then
look closely at these points to see if the pilot was thermalling
through 18K and still circling several hundred feet above this
altitude. Or maybe the pilot rolled out of the lift at 17.7K, then
"bounced" some lift on exit and happened to exceed 18K. I'll see how
often this happened, and make a subjective decision whether to
challenge the flight or not. If the flight is being submitted for a
FAI award of some type, then an objective analysis must be made and
perhaps the FAI claim not made, but the OLC claim can stand.

That is, IMO, the most sporting way to keep things fun and simple for
all of us.

-Tom

"5Z" wrote in message
oups.com...

Andy wrote:
The difference between the flights is that SSA can determine sunset
time and landing time to one second accuracy but SSA has no means to
detect proximity to cloud base.

Andy, this is where the partner check comes in. At least one flight
under discussion had a landing over a half hour after sunset - not 10
seconds. The USNO (http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneDay.html)
only provides data to the nearest minute.


Tom,

I noticed that my flight logs, when viewed in SeeYou, show sunrise and
sunset to the second. Does SeeYou get its' data from an external source or
is it calculated by the program based on takeoff and landing coordinates,
altitude, date/time, etc.?

Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/N990_Near_Arco.jpg

Sunset can be calculated to any precision you like, but the USNO rounds
it to the nearest minute. I have emailed Team SeeYou about thier sunset
calculation, and whether they are using a calculation for a sun zenith
angle of 90 degrees or the more complex but standardized 90.83333
degree calcualtion. The sunset times in SeeYou are earlier than USNO,
which suggests the former, but they have not confirmed this.

Wayne Paul wrote:

Tom,

I noticed that my flight logs, when viewed in SeeYou, show sunrise and
sunset to the second. Does SeeYou get its' data from an external source or
is it calculated by the program based on takeoff and landing coordinates,
altitude, date/time, etc.?

Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/N990_Near_Arco.jpg