The SSA-OLC

wrote:
" It is the policy of the SSA that all FAR's will be observed".
The same thing is done in contest flying with the exception
that the pilot gets a serious point penalty.

Hank,

You and I have flown enough sanctioned contests to know that just not
true! Only infractions that show in the log are enforced. Ask any
contest pilot about their experiences running cloud streets if they
believe all FAR are observed.


Andy (GY)

Paul Remde a écrit :

I hope most glider pilots will continue to post their flights to the OLC. I
also hope that pilots that break FARs will NOT post their flights on the
OLC.

The bad guys in this are the pilots that submitted flights that break FARs.

What about the pilots that flew 5' after sunset and did not submit their
flights ? Are them not bad guys too ? Do you imply that anyone may break
any FAR's provided that they don't publish their flights ?

And what about some posters that confessed here that they've happened to
fly after the sunset without lights ? Why don't you ask them to cancel
their posts, and/or forward their posts to the FAA in order to prosecute
them ?


--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

Andy wrote:
The difference between the flights is that SSA can determine sunset
time and landing time to one second accuracy but SSA has no means to
detect proximity to cloud base.

Andy, this is where the partner check comes in. At least one flight
under discussion had a landing over a half hour after sunset - not 10
seconds. The USNO (http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneDay.html)
only provides data to the nearest minute.

We certainly COULD penalize the person landing "10 seconds" after
sunset, but I think most OLC participants would allow it to be scored.
As to where to draw the line, that will, IMO, have to be handled on a
case by case basis.

As has been said elsewhere, a few anti-establishment nit-pickers are
trying to force the OLC to set hard, deterministic rules for every
aspect of the flight. They are spoiling the fun for everyone else by
complaining and demanding these rigorous rules (think Olympics, etc.).
The rest of us are happy with reasonable fudge factors being applied to
the flights. And "reasonable" will always be a variable open to
interpretation.

If I happen to examine a flight with a few bumps above 18K, I'll then
look closely at these points to see if the pilot was thermalling
through 18K and still circling several hundred feet above this
altitude. Or maybe the pilot rolled out of the lift at 17.7K, then
"bounced" some lift on exit and happened to exceed 18K. I'll see how
often this happened, and make a subjective decision whether to
challenge the flight or not. If the flight is being submitted for a
FAI award of some type, then an objective analysis must be made and
perhaps the FAI claim not made, but the OLC claim can stand.

That is, IMO, the most sporting way to keep things fun and simple for
all of us.

-Tom

I apologize. This reply was intended to have been sent to Hank only
and not to the group.

Hi Denis,

I don't get your point. I recommend that all soaring pilots follow the
FARs, or the rules for their country - regardless of whether or not they
plan to submit the flights. However, when they do break the FARs (on
purpose or by accident), then it would be unsportsmanlike to submit the
flight.

Paul Remde

"Denis" wrote in message
...
Paul Remde a écrit :

I hope most glider pilots will continue to post their flights to the OLC.
I also hope that pilots that break FARs will NOT post their flights on
the OLC.

The bad guys in this are the pilots that submitted flights that break
FARs.

What about the pilots that flew 5' after sunset and did not submit their
flights ? Are them not bad guys too ? Do you imply that anyone may break
any FAR's provided that they don't publish their flights ?

And what about some posters that confessed here that they've happened to
fly after the sunset without lights ? Why don't you ask them to cancel
their posts, and/or forward their posts to the FAA in order to prosecute
them ?


--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

"5Z" wrote in message
oups.com...

Andy wrote:
The difference between the flights is that SSA can determine sunset
time and landing time to one second accuracy but SSA has no means to
detect proximity to cloud base.

Andy, this is where the partner check comes in. At least one flight
under discussion had a landing over a half hour after sunset - not 10
seconds. The USNO (http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneDay.html)
only provides data to the nearest minute.


Tom,

I noticed that my flight logs, when viewed in SeeYou, show sunrise and
sunset to the second. Does SeeYou get its' data from an external source or
is it calculated by the program based on takeoff and landing coordinates,
altitude, date/time, etc.?

Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/N990_Near_Arco.jpg

Hi Ramy,

I received your note with the e-mail conversation mentioned below. I have
no idea whether it proves or disproves what you quoted. I don't read German
very well and I don't know who made the translation to English found in the
note. It was as useless to me as this thread.

However, I shouldn't have suggested that you twisted his words. I don't
know what he said and I shouldn't have guessed.

Paul Remde


"Ramy" wrote in message
ups.com...
Paul, you are absolutly wrong, again.
I will privately email you the source of the statement (since it was a
private email) and you will draw your own conclusion. I hope you will
reply to the forum with your conclusion if I twisted things or not!

Ramy

Paul Remde wrote:
OK. I just can't resist this one.

You seem to be twisting things, not just a little, but a lot.

My guess is that the statement by Mr. Reiner (if it is true) that the
"recent developments are sad" was probably because he was very surprised
to
see that any glider pilot would post a flight on a public forum that
could
make all the rest of us glider pilots look bad. Most glider pilots would
hope that such a pilot would remove his flight when someone questioned
it.
Most glider pilots would. My guess is that your addition of the
"paraphrase" "(meaning that the SSA has changed the rules in this
respect)"
is putting incorrect words into his mouth.

Paul Remde


"Ramy" wrote in message
oups.com...
Excellent points, KM.
I saw a comment from the originator of the olc, Mr. Reiner, that he
"find this development (meaning the fact that the SSA has changed the
rules in this respect)
also very sad".
Yes, you can post under any country and club you wish and bypass the
SSA-OLC. Some of us considering doing it, some already are.
Also you can post any length of flight, there are many who post local
flights as well. And 200-300 miles is not a short flight...

Ramy


KM wrote:
I am new to the R.A.S. and I am an aspiraring contest pilot who flys
XC
every chance I get,but I have never persued a badge or a contest.I
read
with some interest and amusement the thread about the OLC sunset
warning.This inspired me to look up all of the OLC information on the
SSA website.I also looked up the German OLC site.I had heard about OLC
in the past, and had a bit of a clue what it was about, But I never
thought about participating.In my state, we have a active Yahoo group
where pilots post flights during the season.This is not a contest,
just
a way to report on the local happenings.I drew alot of insperation
from
these flight reports on Yahoo, and I thought it would be of benefit to
some of the local pilots if I posted on OLC.What I found that was
interesting is that the German OLC website states that the OLC exists
for this purpose and to encorage more cross country flights, but the
SSA website made almost no mention of this.And judging by the gist of
most of the comments on the "Sunset" thread the SSA OLC is not for
educational purposes, but much more of a hard core contest.According
to
pilots like Eric G and Paul M, the posting of "Look what I did"
flights
is discouraged.So this begs the question that if a pilot is not out to
win, why even post a flight on the SSA-OLC? How did the SSA get a
monopoly on the OLC in the US, and why did they change its intent?
Another thing I found during my research on the SSA website was a memo
regarding FARs.It started out with "The SSA is not out to interpret or
enforce FARs" and yet it ends with a statement that the SSA will
partner with the FAA to go after any pilot who violates the regs.This
same kind of mentality is expressed on the "OLC Sunset Warning"
elsewhere on the site.Now let me state that I fly for a living, and I
have every motivation BOTH from a monitary standpoint and a safety
standpoint to follow the regs, but lets say my flight recorder does
something stupid and now I have the same outfit that I pay dues to
HELPING the FAA come after me?Bizarre
I have a backround as a check airman and safety inspector, and we
looked at rules violations from a standpoint of education and
prevention, not the punitive standpoint the SSA has.
So in conclusion, I was hoping the list members could field a couple
of
questions, First, if a pilot were to post an ocasional short flight,
say 2 to 3 hundred miles about once a week, is he gonna get laughed
at?
And two, is there a way to bypass the SSA-OLC (and forgo all the
politics and flaming), and just post to the OLC in Germany?
Thanks,
K. Urban

Some good points KM. After lurking for a long time re this I finally feel
compelled to share my thoughts as one of the "silent" folks out here.

I do not want you to call the police with my license plate number should I
pass you going over the speed limit. Nor do I want you to call my HOA
should I paint my house a slightly different shade of brown without their
permission. Nor do I wish you to report me to the club when I move my golf
ball slightly out of the rough.

Nor do I want you to review every one of my OLC flights in order to look for
infractions. Yup I bust 18K once in a great while. And not that I'm a
religious person but I think that "Let he without sin cast the first stone"
fits this discussion perfectly.

Before some squeaker writes back with yet another scenario of gliders
getting sucked into a 747 engine and offing all 400 souls on board resulting
in gliding being shut down forever I'll say that I am sure I could come up
with at least a dozen other equally harrowing potential conflicts but that
I'd suggest that all of those scenarios are statistically more likely to
occur where we all fly most frequently......between sunrise and sunset and
under 18K. That's why I have a transponder.

If you happened to notice that there are a couple of bad apples that
consistently fly outside the rules or if there is a gross infraction on any
given flight then pull them aside and ask them if they had considered how
that could impact not only them but the rest of us. But everyone looking
over everyone elses shoulder....come on folks.....pick up a good book or
play with your kids for a few minutes more each day instead.

Finally is there any data to show that this is really a problem i.e. the
discussions here have centered around one or two pilots and one or two
flights. The rest of the discussion has been conjecture. Let's go have fun
for God's sake and quit giving new pilots the impression that we're all a
bunch of paranoid anal retentive old farts.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

Ramy wrote:
Excellent points, KM.
I saw a comment from the originator of the olc, Mr. Reiner, that he
"find this development (meaning the fact that the SSA has changed the
rules in this respect)
also very sad".
Yes, you can post under any country and club you wish and bypass the
SSA-OLC. Some of us considering doing it, some already are.
Also you can post any length of flight, there are many who post local
flights as well. And 200-300 miles is not a short flight...

Ramy

Ramy, why don't you post the whole quote in context so we can interpret
it for ourselves, instead of giving us your obviously biased
interpretation. The SSA-OLC team has been in constant contact with the
OLC-i team, including Mr. Reiner Rose, so he is well aware of the
situation, and he has not expressed such reservations to us. I will let
him speak for himself, though.

Also your statement about posting under any country is incorrect. The
flights you made from Truckee that you claimed to Brazil were caught by
the OLC-i admin, and moved back to the US. His email to me indicated
that he was quite annoyed about this. So please stop, and do not
encourage others to do the same.

Also, would you please disclose if you had any contact with KM before
he made the post you so wholehartedly endorsed here.

Sunset can be calculated to any precision you like, but the USNO rounds
it to the nearest minute. I have emailed Team SeeYou about thier sunset
calculation, and whether they are using a calculation for a sun zenith
angle of 90 degrees or the more complex but standardized 90.83333
degree calcualtion. The sunset times in SeeYou are earlier than USNO,
which suggests the former, but they have not confirmed this.

Wayne Paul wrote:

Tom,

I noticed that my flight logs, when viewed in SeeYou, show sunrise and
sunset to the second. Does SeeYou get its' data from an external source or
is it calculated by the program based on takeoff and landing coordinates,
altitude, date/time, etc.?

Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/N990_Near_Arco.jpg