New vs. Used

Not only has carbon fiber gone up in price, but the availability has
been severely limited. I bought about 100 yards more than a year and a
half ago for about $25.00 a yard. This was for the Hexcell 282 and 284
styles. These are very close to what the Europeans use. I can get the
same styles now for about $36 to $38 a yard. If you buy more, the price
goes down a bit, and I'm sure that the best prices go to the biggest
customers. I'm just glad to know when I need more if SHOULD be
available.

Not only have Boeing and Airbus cornered the market, but they also have
specified different weaves and weights, so the carbon manufacturers
have obliged them by making that instead of the "common" styles used by
the rest of us.

I rather enjoy working with carbon, the HP-24 fuselage I made using
carbon, and carbon/kevlar hybrid is quite a bit stiffer, stronger and
lighter than the equivalent fiberglass only fuselage we made.

Cheers,
Brad

Jacek, how many gliders do you have?

Neal Pfeiffer wrote:
What is for sure is that the cost of carbon-fiber cloth has gone up
greatly (well over 100%) over the past two years. Whether that is tied
to Boeing using (or stocking up with) much more of the aircraft-quality,
carbon supply for their 787 is a matter for discussion.

For some new gliders, the increased cost for carbon makes a case for
using carbon only in the highest-stress locations and glass for the
majority of the structure. The end product may be a little heavier, but
should cost much less.

wrote:
I just received an email with the monthly news from DG. The 2
paragraphs that struck me most is the explanation [1] of the cost of a
new glider and [2] cost of replacement parts. The high cost of a new
sailplanes and the delays in production was blamed on the war between
Airbus and Boeing. OK, lets say I'll buy some of that....but at the
same time I started thinking about cost of used gliders. If the analogy
used in the newsletter was applied both ways then the cost of used
sailplanes should go up significantly....or maybe for European market
the best purchases on the used market are here in the U.S.? When you
take the cost and read the explanation about the cost of parts...well,
it seems to me that the used market should be booming now. I don't know
how many of you received the DG newsletter but ....are there any
thoughts? I guess I will sit for a while on one of my gliders and wait
for improvements of prices on used market.

Jacek
Pasco, WA

And by the way Tom.....you can get parts to the PZL Jantar line without
any problems and that is not from one but multiple sources......

GK wrote:
Mike Schumann wrote:
Prices will come down when the chinese start building gliders.

Mike Schumann

- Or companies like Honda.

That won't bring prices down. Honda build better, not cheaper.

GC

Mike Schumann wrote:
If someone came up with a DG-1000 equivalent at 1/2 the cost, people would
line up to buy them.

I don't think so. As the Polish contributors to this group have rather
bitterly commented every now and then, there is a snob factor about
German gliders and NOT built in Germany will take some selling -
especially if they're cheaper.

GC

Graeme Cant wrote:
GK wrote:
Mike Schumann wrote:
Prices will come down when the chinese start building gliders.

Mike Schumann

- Or companies like Honda.

That won't bring prices down. Honda build better, not cheaper.

Car makers live by planned obsolescence. Look forward to the 10 year
glider if they get into the game.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Brad wrote:
Not only has carbon fiber gone up in price, but the availability has
been severely limited. I bought about 100 yards more than a year and a
half ago for about $25.00 a yard. This was for the Hexcell 282 and 284
styles. These are very close to what the Europeans use. I can get the
same styles now for about $36 to $38 a yard. If you buy more, the price
goes down a bit, and I'm sure that the best prices go to the biggest
customers. I'm just glad to know when I need more if SHOULD be
available.

Not only have Boeing and Airbus cornered the market, but they also have
specified different weaves and weights, so the carbon manufacturers
have obliged them by making that instead of the "common" styles used by
the rest of us.

I rather enjoy working with carbon, the HP-24 fuselage I made using
carbon, and carbon/kevlar hybrid is quite a bit stiffer, stronger and
lighter than the equivalent fiberglass only fuselage we made.

Cheers,
Brad

Jacek, how many gliders do you have?

Just 2. I have Pegase 101a and LS-3a....

Jacek



Neal Pfeiffer wrote:
What is for sure is that the cost of carbon-fiber cloth has gone up
greatly (well over 100%) over the past two years. Whether that is tied
to Boeing using (or stocking up with) much more of the aircraft-quality,
carbon supply for their 787 is a matter for discussion.

For some new gliders, the increased cost for carbon makes a case for
using carbon only in the highest-stress locations and glass for the
majority of the structure. The end product may be a little heavier, but
should cost much less.

wrote:
I just received an email with the monthly news from DG. The 2
paragraphs that struck me most is the explanation [1] of the cost of a
new glider and [2] cost of replacement parts. The high cost of a new
sailplanes and the delays in production was blamed on the war between
Airbus and Boeing. OK, lets say I'll buy some of that....but at the
same time I started thinking about cost of used gliders. If the analogy
used in the newsletter was applied both ways then the cost of used
sailplanes should go up significantly....or maybe for European market
the best purchases on the used market are here in the U.S.? When you
take the cost and read the explanation about the cost of parts...well,
it seems to me that the used market should be booming now. I don't know
how many of you received the DG newsletter but ....are there any
thoughts? I guess I will sit for a while on one of my gliders and wait
for improvements of prices on used market.

Jacek
Pasco, WA

And by the way Tom.....you can get parts to the PZL Jantar line without
any problems and that is not from one but multiple sources......

We all remember the consequences associated with the
farmed-out Discii and Ventii manufacturing.


At 09:01 02 November 2006, Graeme Cant wrote:
Mike Schumann wrote:
If someone came up with a DG-1000 equivalent at 1/2
the cost, people would
line up to buy them.

I don't think so. As the Polish contributors to this
group have rather
bitterly commented every now and then, there is a snob
factor about
German gliders and NOT built in Germany will take some
selling -
especially if they're cheaper.

GC

AMS builds fine sailplanes. I am interested to see how well their
re-issue of the LS-4 and LS-6 will be greeted.
My Apis-13 was made by Albastar, who were a group of ELAN guys, now
since bought out by AMS. I am very impressed with the quality of the
Apis. It is not trying to be a German glider, and I find that is fine
with me.

Brad
199AK


Nyal Williams wrote:
We all remember the consequences associated with the
farmed-out Discii and Ventii manufacturing.


At 09:01 02 November 2006, Graeme Cant wrote:
Mike Schumann wrote:
If someone came up with a DG-1000 equivalent at 1/2
the cost, people would
line up to buy them.

I don't think so. As the Polish contributors to this
group have rather
bitterly commented every now and then, there is a snob
factor about
German gliders and NOT built in Germany will take some
selling -
especially if they're cheaper.

GC

Brad wrote:
AMS builds fine sailplanes. I am interested to see how well their
re-issue of the LS-4 and LS-6 will be greeted.
My Apis-13 was made by Albastar, who were a group of ELAN guys, now
since bought out by AMS. I am very impressed with the quality of the
Apis. It is not trying to be a German glider, and I find that is fine
with me.

And everyone who looks closely at my non-German HpH 304C comments on how
well built it is.

Jeremy

Eric Greenwell wrote:
GK wrote:
[snip]
(Honda) Which builds their cars in the USA...

So, maybe we'll see a corporate buyout of Windward Performance, and the
glider renamed the "HondaHawk". I like the sound of that!

You like the sound of another foreign company taking over US jobs? It
may be true that, for example, Honda builds (some of) their cars in the
USA. But what does that really mean? It means that the US employees
are generally doing the grunt work of manual labor. Most all
Engineering and Management jobs there have been shipped overseas. So
what kinds of jobs will our children, grandchildren, etc. have?
Working on an assembly line bolting together Hondas (be they cars or
gliders)? Not a pretty picture in my view. So no, I don't like the
sound of that.

Doug Hoffman

Doug Hoffman wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote:
GK wrote:
[snip]
(Honda) Which builds their cars in the USA...

So, maybe we'll see a corporate buyout of Windward Performance, and the
glider renamed the "HondaHawk". I like the sound of that!

You like the sound of another foreign company taking over US jobs? It
may be true that, for example, Honda builds (some of) their cars in the
USA. But what does that really mean? It means that the US employees
are generally doing the grunt work of manual labor. Most all
Engineering and Management jobs there have been shipped overseas. So
what kinds of jobs will our children, grandchildren, etc. have?
Working on an assembly line bolting together Hondas (be they cars or
gliders)? Not a pretty picture in my view. So no, I don't like the
sound of that.

Beats the hell out of working at Wally World.

Shawn