Fly It to the Ground

"Danny Dot" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...


If the engine has just done something nasty like throw a rod, the best
thing financially is to have an off field landing and total the plane. If
you land on a runway without damage, the insurance company pays nothing.

Danny Dot

You are advocating insurance fraud? I guess we now know why you use a
psuedo-name.

You might want to look into the phrase "prudent uninsured". You might even
find it in your policy.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

Kinetic energy and thus landing distance, is proportional to the square
of the speed. (Students need to be told this when learning to land.)

EridanMan wrote:
I read a statistic somewhere that if you touch-down at 50 mph, assuming
a constant 9G deceleration (Easily Survivable), you only need 10 feet
to come to a full stop.

Increase to 70mph, and you need 40 something feet.

Fly her all the way into the ground, make a shallow, full stall
landing, and you'll probably survive... The real danger comes when
people place too much value on not harming the aircraft.

"Stubby" wrote in message
. ..
Kinetic energy and thus landing distance, is proportional to the square of
the speed. (Students need to be told this when learning to land.)



You want to show us that in an equation?

--------------------------------------------
DW

FWIW, I found the actual numbers here, they were actually in the FAA
"airplane fliers handbook"

For a Constant, 9G deceleration (as I mentioned, easily survivable)-

at 50MPH, 9.4 feet
at 75MPH, 18.8 feet
at 100MPH, 37.6 feet

What to take away from this, is you will probably survive a full-stall
landing on just about any surface in your typical light single GA
aircraft... Hell, even in thick bushes or small trees... The key is to
strike A- as slow and B- as shallow as possible.

The risk comes almost invariably when a pilot passes up a "suitable"
landing zone (even the aformentioned tree canopy) for a "better" one
that is marginally outside of his energy-budget's reach... A full
stall 30 feet off the ground while trying to extend a glide will
almost always be fatal... the same full stall just 30 feet lower, even
in on a less than ideal surface, will almost always be survivable...

Something to remember.

"Darkwing" theducksmail"AT"yahoo.com writes:

You want to show us that in an equation?

e=s^2

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

EridanMan writes:

I read a statistic somewhere that if you touch-down at 50 mph, assuming
a constant 9G deceleration (Easily Survivable), you only need 10 feet
to come to a full stop.

About 9 feet, 4 inches.

Increase to 70mph, and you need 40 something feet.

Nope. More like 18 feet, 4 inches.

The distance varies as the square of the touchdown velocity.

And human beings can survive up to at least 46 Gs if they are properly
supported and braced for impact, with some temporary sequelae. Nine
gravities of acceleration is trivial to survive, but some people will
black out if the acceleration is sustained (almost invariably with no
aftereffects). Aerobatic aircraft can generally withstand more than 9
Gs, and top aerobatic flyers can fly at such accelerations as well.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Thanks MX, you and I found the same numbers at the same time

The distance varies as the square of the touchdown velocity.

And human beings can survive up to at least 46 Gs if they are properly
supported and braced for impact, with some temporary sequelae. Nine
gravities of acceleration is trivial to survive, but some people will
black out if the acceleration is sustained (almost invariably with no
aftereffects). Aerobatic aircraft can generally withstand more than 9
Gs, and top aerobatic flyers can fly at such accelerations as well.

Bingo. I think a "9 G Average" deceleration is a pretty good bet in
general- you can actually survive substantially higher than that, but
factor in the chance of it being a 'smooth' deceleration as remote
(there will be points you stop more than others), and its a decent rule
of thumb.

just whatever you do, do not strike with vertical speed- The Ground
will stop you _MUCH_ faster vertically than even the thickest brush,
mud and obsticles will horizontally, with the exception of tree trunks
and brick walls (so yeah, don't land into a brick wall either) I.E,
DO NOT RISK STALL BY ATTEMPTING TO STRETCH A GLIDE, NO MATTER HOW
PERFECT YOUR TARGET TOUCHDOWN POINT IS!

I think that's really the core of my argument

Kyle Boatright wrote:
A Lancair was involved in a fatal accident near Dalton, GA yesterday. It
crashed in the median of a divided 4 lane highway. The airplane had engine
problems and had time to radio distress calls. Depending on the news source,
it appears that there might have been as much as 10 to 20 minutes between
the first distress call and the crash. One story indicated that the
aircraft crashed almost 10 minutes after emergency crews had been notified
of a plane in distress.

Apparently the pilot was trying to reach the Dalton airport, which was about
3 miles from the crash scene. The airplane didn't make the airport and the
pilot was almost certainly trying to land on the road. Having seen pictures
of the aftermath, it appears that the aircraft was not under control when it
hit the ground. Perhaps the pilot stalled trying to avoid landing in traffic
(this is a busy road), clipped a utility wire, or lost control trying to
avoid wires.

Plane crashes in north Georgia, kills 1 - Examiner.com

http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/sha...06/109692.html
(may require registration)

Anyway, the point that this accident brings home is that unless you have the
opportunity to land on a road that is free of vehicular traffic and which
you know to be free of utility wires, land the airplane in a field if you
have the chance. Even more important is that you need to fly the airplane
all the way to the ground and touch down as slowly as possible. Losing
control at 50' almost guarantees a bad outcome.

I fly over the crash area all the time and can tell you that there is a fair
amount of open land nearby. That pasture (or whatever) may not look as
airplane friendly as a paved road, but for a deadstick pilot a road is like
a sucker hole for a VFR pilot. It can be a killer when something that looked
good from afar goes to you-know-what when you get a look at it up close and
personal.

My advice to all you pilots is that try to land your plane in crop
field in emergency.

It is another thing that I have seen planes only in movies and TV.

FWIW, I sat down and had a discussion with a couple old-timers and
instructors about this very subject at my club the other night.

They're point of view, which is so painfully simple I can't believe I
didn't see it myself...

"If the Engine fails, just Fly Vg".

Basically, they're whole point was the best way you make sure that you
never have to make the 'choice' to try to push a glide to the field is
simply to take that out of consideration in engine out situations. Fly
Vg from the moment the engine cuts to the moment you begin your
round-out... land wherever that puts you.

The only kink in the armor is - if you're lined up on final for a
runway and you're greater than 250 + your 360 sink altitude, do a 360.
If below that mark, use the flaps, or slip if necessary to bleed off
energy and not overshoot the runway, but whatever you do, Do not
deviate from Vg.

Similarly, if you're low... fly Vg. Keep Vg up as long as you can
(flaps retracted, of course). If you hit 10 feet above the ground and
you're not at the runway, go ahead and flare, you're not going to make
it...

This is probably a 'duh' to anyone on here but I figured it was
worth mentioning anyways.



On Nov 7, 5:12 pm, "Kyle Boatright" wrote:
A Lancair was involved in a fatal accident near Dalton, GA yesterday. It
crashed in the median of a divided 4 lane highway. The airplane had engine
problems and had time to radio distress calls. Depending on the news source,
it appears that there might have been as much as 10 to 20 minutes between
the first distress call and the crash. One story indicated that the
aircraft crashed almost 10 minutes after emergency crews had been notified
of a plane in distress.

Apparently the pilot was trying to reach the Dalton airport, which was about
3 miles from the crash scene. The airplane didn't make the airport and the
pilot was almost certainly trying to land on the road. Having seen pictures
of the aftermath, it appears that the aircraft was not under control when it
hit the ground. Perhaps the pilot stalled trying to avoid landing in traffic
(this is a busy road), clipped a utility wire, or lost control trying to
avoid wires.

Plane crashes in north Georgia, kills 1 - Examiner.com

http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/sha...ing/entries/20...
(may require registration)

Anyway, the point that this accident brings home is that unless you have the
opportunity to land on a road that is free of vehicular traffic and which
you know to be free of utility wires, land the airplane in a field if you
have the chance. Even more important is that you need to fly the airplane
all the way to the ground and touch down as slowly as possible. Losing
control at 50' almost guarantees a bad outcome.

I fly over the crash area all the time and can tell you that there is a fair
amount of open land nearby. That pasture (or whatever) may not look as
airplane friendly as a paved road, but for a deadstick pilot a road is like
a sucker hole for a VFR pilot. It can be a killer when something that looked
good from afar goes to you-know-what when you get a look at it up close and
personal.

KB

Fly Vg from the moment the engine
cuts to the moment you begin your
round-out... land wherever that puts you.

You can do better if you consider the wind. Fly faster than Vg into the
wind, slower than Vg with the wind, and you will increase your range
(and likelihood of reaching something hospitable).

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.