Airbus 380

Why ?! Did that on a regular basis (both 25m and ballasted ships), didn't
see any inconvenience.

"Bruce Greef" wrote in message
...
If you are flying an open class ship or heavily ballasted racer the winch
is not such a good idea.

Bruce

Bert Willing wrote:
Why ?! Did that on a regular basis (both 25m and ballasted ships), didn't
see any inconvenience.

"Bruce Greef" wrote in message
...

If you are flying an open class ship or heavily ballasted racer the winch
is not such a good idea.

Bruce



OK need to qualify that - in the event of cable breaks. You do have to consider
the field when considering whether it is safe to launch any particular glider.
There needs to be enough space to run out on an aborted take off, and the field
needs to be big/long enough that you avoid a launch where there is a part of the
climb with no good options. On our strip, which has a very rough and narrow mid
section there is a part of the launch where you would be too low to make the
nearby tar runway, and too high to stop on the reasonable part of the runway. I
know the solution is to fix the glorified cow paddock we fly from, but getting
glider pilots to spend money on non flying stuff is difficult.
Similarly it does require some skill to manage the extra energy with the big
gliders in the event of a cable break, or abort for whatever reason. With
experience on the part of the pilot and winch driver, this is less of an issue.

So - if the field is safe for the extra energy involved in this, and your winch
is powerful enough winching is no problem. It is quite a sight to watch
something like an ASH25 winch launching - and perfectly OK. There are many clubs
that do this all the time.

Ray,

Get in touch with Uli at Airscapes. They've recently ramped up a
winch.

Frank Whiteley

Ray Lovinggood wrote:
Bill,

Oh, if we only had a winching legacy in the U.S.!
Blame those Wright boys from Dayton for inventing the
expensive towplane!

I would love for our club to have a two-drum winch
with about 5,500' of the new poly rope (rather than
the steel wire) on each drum and a couple of 'Lepo's'
to retrieve the rope. Of course, I wouldn't get rid
of the towplane we have, but supplement it with the
winch. I haven't been winched in about 20 years, not
because I don't want to, but because there isn't a
winch operation where I fly. But my first winch launch
(a 'cat' launch?) was in the back seat of a G103 and
I was elated and impressed. Wow, what a way to fly
a sailplane! Also nice was the lack of noise at the
start point. The wing runner picks up the wing, the
slack in the towline is taken up, then, the glider
is just wisked away. Somedays, we could hear the winch
and somedays we couldn't. Just ambient noise and the
glider is GONE. Now, we are subjected to towplane
noise and, in our situation, the noise of power planes
as they taxi by to take off. And, oh yea, they have
to do their engine run up about where we are staging
for launch. Noisy buggers.

Yep, a nice winch would be great and would make launching
A LOT cheaper!

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA



I understand where you guys are coming from but it's
instructive to look
carefully at the actual costs of learning to fly gliders.
Glider rental
rates are not the big factor. Launch fees are more
than half the total
cost.

Most airplane training operation use trainers that
cost far more than a new
ASK-21 yet they seem to still have lots of customers.
Sleek glass gliders
are a big draw. Clunky old trainers drive more people
away than they
attract with low costs.

Training costs do need to be reduced but attack the
launch cost with a winch
and keep the glass gliders.

Bill Daniels

How much fun you have has very little to do with your L/D until you
start going XC. The 2-33 climbs well and the view is pretty much the
same as it is from a glass ship. We have lots of fun here in Oregon
with our pay out winch and our 2-33s. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to
be flying a DG 1000, but all I can afford at this time is the big, fat,
ugly 2-33. If anyone wants to donate a nice glass 2-place ship to us,
we will gladly accept!

Check out our new winch launch video on my web site:

www.nwskysports.com

Out on the dry lake we get as high as 2500ft on the pay out winch, at
home on our 3000ft runway we can get as high as 1300ft in a good wind.
With no wind we can get to about 800ft, which is good enough for
landing practice

Gary Boggs

Gary,



Wow, that Alvord Desert video is huge! (113 megs)



Wayne

HP-14 "6F"

http://www.soaridaho.com/



wrote in message
oups.com...


How much fun you have has very little to do with your L/D until you
start going XC. The 2-33 climbs well and the view is pretty much the
same as it is from a glass ship. We have lots of fun here in Oregon
with our pay out winch and our 2-33s. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to
be flying a DG 1000, but all I can afford at this time is the big, fat,
ugly 2-33. If anyone wants to donate a nice glass 2-place ship to us,
we will gladly accept!

Check out our new winch launch video on my web site:

www.nwskysports.com

Out on the dry lake we get as high as 2500ft on the pay out winch, at
home on our 3000ft runway we can get as high as 1300ft in a good wind.
With no wind we can get to about 800ft, which is good enough for
landing practice

Gary Boggs

Jim Vincent wrote:
Another one that drank the coolaid.


So, what's your solution, Jim?
Jack

At 18:54 11 November 2006, Jim Vincent wrote:
Jack,

Fair question. I'll need a week or so to respond
to you since I'm caught up in my honey-do list and
a marketing campaign for my company.


Not even winter solstice yet...and one of our favorite
winter time topics has arisen from the ashes. Personally,
I say concede what little youth market there is to
paragliding...it is cheap, and highly visible. Even
chicks dig it. I am not saying abandon youth programs...but
use paragliding as the gateway. Where would soaring
be right now without hang-glider types with busted
landing gears?

I doubt too many of the hang-glider types converted
to soaring because they saw a couple of old codgers
sitting in lawn chairs scratching their sunspots with
a rusty 2-33 pulled up next to them at the mall.(I
stole this line from Pez) Remember the forecasts for
waves of new recruits upon the release of Thomas Crown
Affair 2?. And for that matter, an accomplished hang-glider
piilot probably does not need to hear the stories of
landing behind the enemy lines in Wacos on Normandy,
and spend hours, days, weeks,months pulling 2-33's
around on the ground.

I don't see a sane business model to build low-price
two place ships...the PW-6's are not exactly over-running
the market. Towplane costs, insurance and gas are
pretty much fixed. Winching would be great...but currently
it is rare.

Let them learn about thermals in paragliders...then
maybe we can snag them later.

Our market IMVHO, besides the aforementioned hg's...would
be software geeks, and aging skiers, bikers, windsurfers,
etc. .

If you want to hook kids, you need to partner with a school and a local
corporation that is willing to put some money into science education, get a
winch, and run a low cost after school aviation program. The thing that
will hook the kids is the kick in the pants they get with every launch.

Mike Schumann

"Stewart Kissel" wrote in
message ...
Jim Vincent wrote:
Another one that drank the coolaid.


So, what's your solution, Jim?
Jack

At 18:54 11 November 2006, Jim Vincent wrote:
Jack,

Fair question. I'll need a week or so to respond
to you since I'm caught up in my honey-do list and
a marketing campaign for my company.


Not even winter solstice yet...and one of our favorite
winter time topics has arisen from the ashes. Personally,
I say concede what little youth market there is to
paragliding...it is cheap, and highly visible. Even
chicks dig it. I am not saying abandon youth programs...but
use paragliding as the gateway. Where would soaring
be right now without hang-glider types with busted
landing gears?

I doubt too many of the hang-glider types converted
to soaring because they saw a couple of old codgers
sitting in lawn chairs scratching their sunspots with
a rusty 2-33 pulled up next to them at the mall.(I
stole this line from Pez) Remember the forecasts for
waves of new recruits upon the release of Thomas Crown
Affair 2?. And for that matter, an accomplished hang-glider
piilot probably does not need to hear the stories of
landing behind the enemy lines in Wacos on Normandy,
and spend hours, days, weeks,months pulling 2-33's
around on the ground.

I don't see a sane business model to build low-price
two place ships...the PW-6's are not exactly over-running
the market. Towplane costs, insurance and gas are
pretty much fixed. Winching would be great...but currently
it is rare.

Let them learn about thermals in paragliders...then
maybe we can snag them later.

Our market IMVHO, besides the aforementioned hg's...would
be software geeks, and aging skiers, bikers, windsurfers,
etc. .

Although I agree the target market is junior/senior HS age,
institutional organizations (including corporations) have lawyered up
under 'risk management'. 25-30 years ago, universities had all manner
of acitivity/experience clubs, including equipment and gear, on campus.
Most of that's been moved off campus now. Campus clubs are mostly
social contact groups now.

I know a soaring club member whose daughter wanted to introduce her
junior ROTC unit to soaring. The school board decided it was too
dangerous.

Frank

Mike Schumann wrote:
If you want to hook kids, you need to partner with a school and a local
corporation that is willing to put some money into science education, get a
winch, and run a low cost after school aviation program. The thing that
will hook the kids is the kick in the pants they get with every launch.

Mike Schumann

"Stewart Kissel" wrote in
message ...
Jim Vincent wrote:
Another one that drank the coolaid.


So, what's your solution, Jim?
Jack

At 18:54 11 November 2006, Jim Vincent wrote:
Jack,

Fair question. I'll need a week or so to respond
to you since I'm caught up in my honey-do list and
a marketing campaign for my company.


Not even winter solstice yet...and one of our favorite
winter time topics has arisen from the ashes. Personally,
I say concede what little youth market there is to
paragliding...it is cheap, and highly visible. Even
chicks dig it. I am not saying abandon youth programs...but
use paragliding as the gateway. Where would soaring
be right now without hang-glider types with busted
landing gears?

I doubt too many of the hang-glider types converted
to soaring because they saw a couple of old codgers
sitting in lawn chairs scratching their sunspots with
a rusty 2-33 pulled up next to them at the mall.(I
stole this line from Pez) Remember the forecasts for
waves of new recruits upon the release of Thomas Crown
Affair 2?. And for that matter, an accomplished hang-glider
piilot probably does not need to hear the stories of
landing behind the enemy lines in Wacos on Normandy,
and spend hours, days, weeks,months pulling 2-33's
around on the ground.

I don't see a sane business model to build low-price
two place ships...the PW-6's are not exactly over-running
the market. Towplane costs, insurance and gas are
pretty much fixed. Winching would be great...but currently
it is rare.

Let them learn about thermals in paragliders...then
maybe we can snag them later.

Our market IMVHO, besides the aforementioned hg's...would
be software geeks, and aging skiers, bikers, windsurfers,
etc. .