Instrument Student Pilot Filing IFR

Ron Natalie wrote:

Brad wrote:


Either way, I'd have a hard time believing that the flight plan would
be the determinant information of who was PIC for a flight when more
than one pilot could serve as PIC.

It's not. Specifically not in an enforcement action. The FAA goes
after whoever they determine they can injure the most with the action.


Another way to look at it, they go after the required crew member(s).

On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 07:47:36 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

In article et,
"Roy N5804F" wrote:


Is it legal for a non-instrument rated pilot to file IFR in his own name in
order to undergo instrument training while accompanied by his CFII ?
In other words.
Who should file IFR for a training instrument flight ? The student or the
CFII ?

Thanks for input

If you are not instrument rated, current, etc, it's not legal for you to
act as PIC under IFR. You can file the flight plan (i.e. type it into
DUATS, dictate it to FSS on the phone, etc) but put your instructor's name
down in the PIC box.

As a student I always filed under my name, but like some others have
mentioned, listed instrument training flight.

OTOH we were out shooting approaches (not on a flight plan) with the
weather going down. It soon became apparent we were not going to be
able to maintain VMC and told approach we'd either need to break off
or be put in the system. They just entered the plane into the system
without a whole lot of questions. The instructor mentioned to me that
I should have given his name but not to worry about it. I don't
recall them even asking for a name. Any way after a couple of
approaches we thanked them and headed for home while we could still
get in on the VOR approach. (this was before GPS approaches were
common)

OTOH (I've mentioned this before) I've had it suddenly go IMC just
after lift off almost right in front of the tower. Once second it was
10 miles and well over 3000 and just a couple seconds later I could
barely see the edge of the runway about 30 feet below and absolutely
nothing ahead. I made an off hand remark to the tower about looking
like the visibility was going down a bit to which they replied
they'd noticed that. They knew we were IMC, I knew they knew, and they
knew I knew they knew. We broke out on top still climbing out over
the down wind leg. I reported on top at 3000 or what ever it was.
They thanked me and when we hit 10 miles they announced the weather
and were now IFR only.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Roy N5804F wrote:

Is it legal for a non-instrument rated pilot to file IFR in his own name in
order to undergo instrument training while accompanied by his CFII ?
In other words.
Who should file IFR for a training instrument flight ? The student or the
CFII ?

Thanks for input


There is no prohibition on who can file. The ONLY issue is that the
flight plan MUST bear the name (by regulation) of the pilot in command
which can't be the student. This gets sticky on DUAT (at least the
GTE one) because they always insert the registered user's name in
the PIC field.

I filed my instructor's name via FSS when I was doing my training.

Make sure that the CFII knows you are filing flight plans
with his name. It is the customary practice, but just be
sure that the actual filing and plan is seen by the CFII/PIC
before you file.


"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...
| Roy N5804F wrote:
|
| Is it legal for a non-instrument rated pilot to file IFR
in his own name in
| order to undergo instrument training while accompanied
by his CFII ?
| In other words.
| Who should file IFR for a training instrument flight ?
The student or the
| CFII ?
|
| Thanks for input
|
|
| There is no prohibition on who can file. The ONLY issue
is that the
| flight plan MUST bear the name (by regulation) of the
pilot in command
| which can't be the student. This gets sticky on DUAT (at
least the
| GTE one) because they always insert the registered user's
name in
| the PIC field.
|
| I filed my instructor's name via FSS when I was doing my
training.

Jim Macklin wrote:
Make sure that the CFII knows you are filing flight plans
with his name. It is the customary practice, but just be
sure that the actual filing and plan is seen by the CFII/PIC
before you file.

Yes, this was done with the concurrence of the instructor.

On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 07:50:47 -0500, Ron Natalie
wrote:

Roy N5804F wrote:

Is it legal for a non-instrument rated pilot to file IFR in his own name in
order to undergo instrument training while accompanied by his CFII ?
In other words.
Who should file IFR for a training instrument flight ? The student or the
CFII ?

Thanks for input


There is no prohibition on who can file. The ONLY issue is that the
flight plan MUST bear the name (by regulation) of the pilot in command
which can't be the student. This gets sticky on DUAT (at least the
GTE one) because they always insert the registered user's name in
the PIC field.

That's probably OK any way as I'd bet half the students file under
their own name rather than the instructors. You call and Identify
yourself asking for a briefing and would like to file IFR for (what
ever aircraft) Unless identified as an IFR training flight FSS is
likely to have already entered that by the time you get to it. That
happened to me on a number of occasions.



I filed my instructor's name via FSS when I was doing my training.


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Technically the name on the flight plan must be that of the PIC, which
in this case is the CFII. However, I doubt that anyone would care whose
name is on the flight plan as long as there is a qualified PIC in the
cockpit. Just the same as ATC does not care what you use for navigation
as long as you fly your clearance. The only time a question would arise
is in case of an accident or emergency. In those cases it would not
matter whose name was on the flight plan. The presumed PIC will be at
fault. In the case of a dual flight, the CFI is the presumed PIC even
if he was not actively instructing.



Roy N5804F wrote:
Is it legal for a non-instrument rated pilot to file IFR in his own name in
order to undergo instrument training while accompanied by his CFII ?
In other words.
Who should file IFR for a training instrument flight ? The student or the
CFII ?

Thanks for input

--
Roy
Piper Archer N5804F

Well thanks to all for the input so far.
The consensus seems to be that an instrument student cannot file an IFR plan
in his own name.
The basis of that opinion seems to hinge on who is PIC.
I am not sure, but I think that electronic filing via AOPA flight planner
would not give you any opportunity to use other than your own name ?
So maybe all filing would have to be done via the telephone or radio.

Roy


"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
ups.com...
Technically the name on the flight plan must be that of the PIC, which
in this case is the CFII. However, I doubt that anyone would care whose
name is on the flight plan as long as there is a qualified PIC in the
cockpit. Just the same as ATC does not care what you use for navigation
as long as you fly your clearance. The only time a question would arise
is in case of an accident or emergency. In those cases it would not
matter whose name was on the flight plan. The presumed PIC will be at
fault. In the case of a dual flight, the CFI is the presumed PIC even
if he was not actively instructing.



Roy N5804F wrote:
Is it legal for a non-instrument rated pilot to file IFR in his own name
in
order to undergo instrument training while accompanied by his CFII ?
In other words.
Who should file IFR for a training instrument flight ? The student or the
CFII ?

Thanks for input

--
Roy
Piper Archer N5804F

Roy N5804F wrote:

The consensus seems to be that an instrument student cannot file an IFR plan
in his own name.

Let's be precise. The instrument student may file all the flight plans
he cares to. He just can't accept a clearance.

On 11/28/2006 10:32 AM, Dave Butler wrote:
Roy N5804F wrote:

The consensus seems to be that an instrument student cannot file an IFR plan
in his own name.

Let's be precise. The instrument student may file all the flight plans
he cares to. He just can't accept a clearance.

So is it enough that the CFII is in the plane, listening to the radio
exchange while the student requests and copies/reads-back the clearance?

As PIC, the CFII would be the one officially accepting the clearance (or
not) - non-verbally. The student would only be copying it to paper and
reading it back.

Is this right?

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA