IFR ticket vs. professional training (MD, PhD...)

So Bob,
what kind of plane do you drive?



Gerald


Bob Moore wrote:
"G. Sylvester" wrote

My background, BS and MS from the top 2 bioengineering programs
in the US. (note, I put *much* more weight to experience over letters
after a name including my own). Flying-wise, I have a PPL and
about 33 hours into my IFR ticket.


Well Gerald.....
Here in the USofA, those of us with just a high school diploma
know that you don't have a "PPL" and there is no such thing as
an "IFR ticket".
You may very well posess a "Private Pilot Certificate" and might
just be studying for an "Instrument Rating".
Unlike Europe and other parts of the world, the US government does
not "license" pilots, but instead issues them a "certificate" of
competence. In FAA speak, IFR means Instrument Flight Rules and
a ticket will just get you into the movie theater or a ball game.

Bob Moore

"Bob Moore" wrote in message
. 121...
Well Gerald.....
Here in the USofA, those of us with just a high school diploma
know that you don't have a "PPL"and there is no such thing as
an "IFR ticket".
Unlike Europe and other parts
of the world, the US government does not "license" pilots, but instead
issues them a "certificate" of competence.

Of course the US government licenses pilots. A "license" is a document that
confers permission to do something that is otherwise forbidden. A
private-pilot certificate is therefore a license, and is reasonably called a
PPL.

As for "ticket", check your dictionary: "ticket 1a: a document that serves
as a certificate, license, or permit; especially: a mariner's or airman's
certificate" (www.m-w.com).

--Gary

"G. Sylvester" wrote in message
m...

I got into a discussion with an non-pilot MD comparing
a professional degree versus flying.

I would probably comparing a pilot's license to something like getting an
EMT certification. A doctor I know once told me that the way he looked at
medicine was that no single thing in it was all that difficult, but in order
to be a physician you needed to know thousands upon thousands of specific
things and how they all fit together. An EMT may not have a HS diploma but
knows a handful of things to try to keep you alive for the 30 minutes it
takes to get you to the hospital. The MD equivalent for aviation might be an
ATP/A&P who once worked as an air traffic controller and has an aerospace
engineering degree.

I do however think there are some similarities, in that both medicine and
aviation are the practice of both art and science. Both fields pay a lot of
respect to experience, and while they give people the "MD" as soon as they
finish med school, they still make you spend another four (or more) years as
a resident before turning you loose. Another similarity is that both are
"high consequence" activities that are potentially very intolerant of small
errors. On the other hand, when a doctor screws up, he usually doesn't get
killed along with the patient.

I've had the pleasure of knowing a couple very distinguished physicians, and
they are among the most humble and self-effacing people I know, far more so
than a lot of corporate VPs, lawyers, and real estate agents who have no
remote right to their arrogance.

-cwk.

I would probably comparing a pilot's license to something like getting an
EMT certification. A doctor I know once told me that the way he looked at
medicine was that no single thing in it was all that difficult, but in order
to be a physician you needed to know thousands upon thousands of specific
things and how they all fit together. An EMT may not have a HS diploma but
knows a handful of things to try to keep you alive for the 30 minutes it
takes to get you to the hospital. The MD equivalent for aviation might be an
ATP/A&P who once worked as an air traffic controller and has an aerospace
engineering degree.

that's probably the best comparison in my view. Thanks.

I do however think there are some similarities, in that both medicine and
aviation are the practice of both art and science... Another similarity is that both are
"high consequence" activities that are potentially very intolerant of small
errors. On the other hand, when a doctor screws up, he usually doesn't get
killed along with the patient.

exactly and this was a big point that I was trying to make to this MD.
He just thought of flying like jumping into the car and going for a spin
but it takes quite a bit more to do it competently, proficiently and safely.

I've had the pleasure of knowing a couple very distinguished physicians, and
they are among the most humble and self-effacing people I know, far more so
than a lot of corporate VPs, lawyers, and real estate agents who have no
remote right to their arrogance.

You don't deal with many neurosurgeons. The word ego is defined by them.
....not all, but 98% of them. They are probably the F22 and F116
drivers of our bunch. ;-)


Gerald

"G. Sylvester" wrote in message
...

I've had the pleasure of knowing a couple very distinguished
physicians, and
they are among the most humble and self-effacing people I know, far more
so
than a lot of corporate VPs, lawyers, and real estate agents who have no
remote right to their arrogance.

You don't deal with many neurosurgeons. The word ego is defined by them.
....not all, but 98% of them. They are probably the F22 and F116
drivers of our bunch. ;-)

Actually one of the ones I was thinking of is a chief of neurosurgery at a
large hospital, and had served as president of the Massachusetts Medical
Society (which publishes the NEJM). I suppose he's in that 2%.

Arrogance is annoying wherever it's found but I resent it a lot less in
neurosurgeons et. al. than in so many other less-deserved areas.

Cheers,
-cwk.

My airplane partner is a neurosurgeon and he is a lot less arrogant then
I am!! I guess he is in the 2% too... :-)

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
N4443H Mooney '79 M20J

Colin W Kingsbury wrote:

"G. Sylvester" wrote in message
...

I've had the pleasure of knowing a couple very distinguished

physicians, and

they are among the most humble and self-effacing people I know, far more

so

than a lot of corporate VPs, lawyers, and real estate agents who have no
remote right to their arrogance.

You don't deal with many neurosurgeons. The word ego is defined by them.
....not all, but 98% of them. They are probably the F22 and F116
drivers of our bunch. ;-)


Actually one of the ones I was thinking of is a chief of neurosurgery at a
large hospital, and had served as president of the Massachusetts Medical
Society (which publishes the NEJM). I suppose he's in that 2%.

Arrogance is annoying wherever it's found but I resent it a lot less in
neurosurgeons et. al. than in so many other less-deserved areas.

Cheers,
-cwk.

Jon Kraus wrote:

My airplane partner is a neurosurgeon and he is a lot less arrogant then
I am!! I guess he is in the 2% too... :-)

Or you are just WAY too arrogant. :-)


Matt

The MD equivalent for aviation might be an
ATP/A&P who once worked as an air traffic controller and has an
aerospace
engineering degree.

I think even that is being way generous unless there is way more to
being an ATCS than to being an ATP/A&P.

I have a PhD in engineering and use it professionally. I am also and
ATP/A&P recreationally, and I think the training and skull sweat
required to get to that level in aviation doesn't even come close to
what it takes to get a BS in engineering, never mind the PhD. In fact,
I know at least one ATP/A&P who flunked out of engineering school.

When it comes to the private/instrument, I think the professional
equivalent might be something along the lines of those 3 month training
courses required to become a VCR repairman - and then only if it's done
right, rather than just meeting minimum requirements.

Michael

I think your MD friend is mostly correct. Flying is only mentally
challenging until you become competent, then it becomes automatic and easy
like driving. You can't really know that IFR flying will always be
challenging since you are so new to it that you don't even have the rating
yet. There are basically four phases to learning:

1) unconscious incompetent-you don't know what to do and you can't do the
task
2) conscious incompetent- you mentally know what to do but can't do it
3) conscious competent-you mentally know what to do and you cam do it
4) Unconsious competent-you can do the task without thinking about it.

As an instrument sutdent you are probably at level two.

Mike
MU-2

"G. Sylvester" wrote in message
m...

I got into a discussion with an non-pilot MD comparing
a professional degree versus flying.

My background, BS and MS from the top 2 bioengineering programs
in the US. (note, I put *much* more weight to experience over letters
after a name including my own). Flying-wise, I have a PPL and
about 33 hours into my IFR ticket. I should be able to complete
it in under 45 so I'm probably ahead of the curve but a I gotta put
much of this on my book and mental preparation before each
flight and ahead of time that others didn't commit to. I plan
on doing this for the challenge, excitement and unique lifestyle
of being a pilot. I might, in fact, probably will become a CFI(I)
but not full time. We'll see. If someone pays me $10 (or better
yet $500,000) to fly their challenger or Citation to wherever I want
to go, I'll consider. ;-) I've been in professional challenging
situations and none have come close to IFR in IMC.

Overall, my flying experience is just like everyone elses. It is
challenging but by the time you get your ticket and after that
still challenging as it is a never ending battle with learning to stay
ahead of the plane.
The IFR ticket is definitely a step above that as the consequences
is a LOT greater. It is a licence to kill and there is a NEVER ending
true battle with learning everything to save the asses to which the plane
is strapped to. IFR is and will always be for me, the non-professional,
challenging. Certainly after my training, my head hurts from the
concentration level required. All of this is absolutely impossible to
explain to a non-pilot...even a non-IFR pilot it is difficult.

Back to the original question. This person I had the discussion with
is under the impression of flying is probably more like driving and
anybody
can do it. This person is the typical MD, their way is the only way and
they
are the only ones who do it right and no one else can comprehend (I work
for a medical device company and have dealt with hundreds of
neurosurgeons, oncologists and medical physicists around the world).

So the big question, compared to a your profession, how does flying
VFR and IFR compare with regards to training, proficiency, continued
training, mental challenge and anything else that comes to mind? No
need to convince me but more to convince the non-pilot. In particular
I'd like to hear from the professions that require advanced degrees.

Gerald Sylvester

"Mike Rapoport" wrote:
4) Unconsious competent-you can do the task without thinking about it.

Have you made it to "unconscious competent" yet?

After 5+ years of instrument flying, I must say I haven't achieved this
state. I doubt I ever shall, flying only about ten actual approaches per
year plus a dozen for practice. I find that flying approaches in IMC still
requires intense, deliberate concentration for me to stay ahead of the
situation.
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM