OUCHOUCHOUCH wheels-up B1 landing

well... it might have been nice to see the link about the bf..
as it is written.. it implies that this link is about the bf..

BT

"gatt" wrote in message
...

Read the freakin' e-mail again. I said it was IN RESPONSE TO an e-mail
received about a bf110 recovery in Europe.

Jeez. Some people got nothing to say about the topic but they attack the
messenger anyway. I don't care if you were a B-1 instructor or Orville
freakin' Wright: Enjoy the link and/or STFU.

By the way--now don't freak out here, I know it's not a B-1-- a friend
whom I helped research an SB-17 wreck in northern Washington got an e-mail
that states:

We have found aircraft Bf Messerschmitt 110 in Black sea. Aircraft lays
on depth of 35 m. We plan to take out it from water in June 2007.

If you have interest to this aircraft, pls make offer. We have videofilm
25Mb.

-c


"BT" wrote in message
...
read the web again... it was at Diego Garcia..
that is in the middle of the INDIAN OCEAN not EUROPE
and it is not a bf110

and "they were not my students"

BT
Retired B-1 Instructor


"gatt" wrote in message
...

A friend on another forum posted this in response to an e-mail received
about a bf110 recovery in Europe:


http://www.zianet.com/tedmorris/dg/bombers4.html

"BT" wrote in message
...
well... it might have been nice to see the link about the bf..
as it is written.. it implies that this link is about the bf..


Sorry, BT. They didn't provide a link or I'd have posted it in its own
thread (I'd really love to see a bf110.) Haven't heard any other word.

I hoped that indicated "B1" in the subject would indicate I wasn't talking
about the 110 directly, but it could still be confusing I suppose.

I forwarded the link to the chief flight instructor who quipped "there are
those who have landed wheels-up and those who will..." (not seriously), so I
asked him if he minded if I just got it out of the way now while the
hardware was less expensive.

-c

To BT,
If the details...
At about 10 p.m. local time on May 8, 2006, a 7th Bomb Wing
B-1B Lancer based at Dyess AFB, Texas, made a wheels-up
belly landing on runway 31 at Diego Garcia, skidding 7,500
feet down the runway. The aircraft was landing at the end of
an 11 hour ferry mission that started at Andersen AFB,
Guam. During the landing, the B-1B caught fire and
emergency crews extinguished the flames. The four-person
aircrew escaped from the plane through the overhead escape
hatch. The aircraft was finally removed from the runway 4
days later. The Air Force Accident Investigation concluded
the pilots forgot to lower the landing gear. The USAF
estimated the damage to the B-1B at $7.9 million, and the
damage to the runway at $14,025. RBRM and those old SEABEES
made one tough runway, that's for sure! For those of you
who've never seen a $285,000,000.00 bomber on the deck, here
she is:
http://www.zianet.com:80/tedmorris/dg/bombers4.html to
see pictures...
I have several questions..
1. It was a night landing and the lights are or appear to
be on the gear legs, are no light landings normal ?

2. With the gear up and normal power settings, wouldn't
the speed be much higher?

3 Doesn't the crew both check gear down lights? Has tyhe
USAF stopped using tower controllers procedures, "Check gear
down, cleared to land?"

4. What is the chance they were doing a hoigh speed low
pass and just got too low?



"BT" wrote in message
...
| read the web again... it was at Diego Garcia..
| that is in the middle of the INDIAN OCEAN not EUROPE
| and it is not a bf110
|
| and "they were not my students"
|
| BT
| Retired B-1 Instructor
|
|
| "gatt" wrote in message
| ...
|
| A friend on another forum posted this in response to an
e-mail received
| about a bf110 recovery in Europe:
|
|
| http://www.zianet.com/tedmorris/dg/bombers4.html
|
|
|

I have several questions..
1. It was a night landing and the lights are or appear to be on the gear
legs, are no light landings normal ?

The only landing lights are on the nose gear, no light landings are not
normal IN A TRAINING - PEACE TIME ENVIRONMENT. By the time they might have
realized the light was not shining on the runway... it may have been to
late. It is also possible that they were directed to do lights out langings
for operational security. Otherwise the tower might have mentioned that they
had no lights. Deigo Garcia is a staging base for operations into Iraq.

2. With the gear up and normal power settings, wouldn't the speed be
much higher?

Not that much higher.. the gear does not cause much drag.. considering the
size of the aircraft.
I'm surprised the gear horn was not blaring.. the gear/flap/slat horn goes
off at 240knts. Target approach speed and configuration will achieve proper
AOA, then follow the AOA indicators, they are up front when looking out the
window and in the field of view, not down on the panel. No HUD like a
fighter.

3 Doesn't the crew both check gear down lights? Has the USAF stopped
using tower controllers procedures, "Check gear down, cleared to land?"

It may not have been an AF tower crew, it could have been a contract tower.
A lot of services use that field for staging into IRAQ.
They still used the standard phrase when I was flying.. even with fixed
runner helicopters.
Only the stick shaking pilots can see the gear lights, the aft station crews
cannot, but they should have had a verbal from the pilots.

4. What is the chance they were doing a high speed low pass and just
got too low?

If it was a high speed low pass.. they would have slid a lot farther and the
flaps/slats would (may) not have been deployed.
Minimum approach speed for a no flap/no slat is about 210knts. Normal speed
with flaps and slats is around 150knots, actual approach speed varies
depending on landing weight. Normal speed for a low pass varies from 350knts
to 550knts. I would doubt they would be doing that after an 11 hr ferry
mission.



Obviously there was a breakdown in CRM after a long overwater flight from
Guam, and possibly staged from Dyess the previous day with a likely hood of
minimum crew rest on the layover in Guam. An 11hr mission is not too long
for us older types used to long missions, but on top of the flight from
Dyess it adds up. It does not mention when they left the States and how long
their layover was in Guam. My longest B-52 training mission was about
16hours, my longest B-1 training mission, about 10 hrs.

BT

Thanks.


"BT" wrote in message
...
| I have several questions..
| 1. It was a night landing and the lights are or appear
to be on the gear
| legs, are no light landings normal ?
|
| The only landing lights are on the nose gear, no light
landings are not
| normal IN A TRAINING - PEACE TIME ENVIRONMENT. By the time
they might have
| realized the light was not shining on the runway... it may
have been to
| late. It is also possible that they were directed to do
lights out langings
| for operational security. Otherwise the tower might have
mentioned that they
| had no lights. Deigo Garcia is a staging base for
operations into Iraq.
|
| 2. With the gear up and normal power settings,
wouldn't the speed be
| much higher?
|
| Not that much higher.. the gear does not cause much drag..
considering the
| size of the aircraft.
| I'm surprised the gear horn was not blaring.. the
gear/flap/slat horn goes
| off at 240knts. Target approach speed and configuration
will achieve proper
| AOA, then follow the AOA indicators, they are up front
when looking out the
| window and in the field of view, not down on the panel. No
HUD like a
| fighter.
|
| 3 Doesn't the crew both check gear down lights? Has
the USAF stopped
| using tower controllers procedures, "Check gear down,
cleared to land?"
|
| It may not have been an AF tower crew, it could have been
a contract tower.
| A lot of services use that field for staging into IRAQ.
| They still used the standard phrase when I was flying..
even with fixed
| runner helicopters.
| Only the stick shaking pilots can see the gear lights, the
aft station crews
| cannot, but they should have had a verbal from the pilots.
|
| 4. What is the chance they were doing a high speed
low pass and just
| got too low?
|
| If it was a high speed low pass.. they would have slid a
lot farther and the
| flaps/slats would (may) not have been deployed.
| Minimum approach speed for a no flap/no slat is about
210knts. Normal speed
| with flaps and slats is around 150knots, actual approach
speed varies
| depending on landing weight. Normal speed for a low pass
varies from 350knts
| to 550knts. I would doubt they would be doing that after
an 11 hr ferry
| mission.
|
|
|
| Obviously there was a breakdown in CRM after a long
overwater flight from
| Guam, and possibly staged from Dyess the previous day with
a likely hood of
| minimum crew rest on the layover in Guam. An 11hr mission
is not too long
| for us older types used to long missions, but on top of
the flight from
| Dyess it adds up. It does not mention when they left the
States and how long
| their layover was in Guam. My longest B-52 training
mission was about
| 16hours, my longest B-1 training mission, about 10 hrs.
|
| BT
|
|

I saw the photos from this story shortly after the accident happened,
so I printed one out and I have it sitting on my desk with "GUMP"
underneath. Still cracks me up when I look at it, and I make sure my
students see it too.


gatt wrote:
A friend on another forum posted this in response to an e-mail received
about a bf110 recovery in Europe:


http://www.zianet.com/tedmorris/dg/bombers4.html