Holds on autopilot?

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...


2) Timing the hold to arrive back at the holding fix right at the EFC
time. A hold can be 4,3 or 2 minutes so you mix them up to make the
time come out right.

Huh? Did you make all that up? The only time you need to cross the holding
fix at any particular time is when you are doing a timed approach from the
hold and you are given a crossing time. EFC time has nothing to do with
anything other than lost com, and there is no requirement or recommendation
from the FAA or anyone else I have ever heard to attempt crossing the fix at
EFC time, nor can I imagine any need to do so.

A hold can be 4,3 or 2 minutes so you mix them up to make the
time come out right.

A hold can be almost any time you want unless you are assigned a specific
time, and that time applies to the inbound leg, and is not meant to be
precise. A default hold is a one-minute inbound leg, but you can make it
longer or shorter if you want and nobody cares. Don't go to extremes, and
go do five minutes, but within wide limits (depends on your speed), it just
doesn't really matter. There is no specification anywhere that a hold must
be four or three or two minutes or combinations thereof. The only guidance
is a one-minute inbound leg for the default holding pattern, and staying
within the maximum distance specified on the chart, if any. Of course, on a
checkride, you ought to strive for the specified time for the inbound leg.

On a timed approach, the crossing time is meant to be fairly exact, so you
adjust as required, and not in increments of one minute.

I don't understand the point of telling people that they shouldn't worry
much about holds because you hardly ever have to fly one. You do have to
fly them at times, and when that time comes, you have to know how to do them
and be proficient at it. They are a standard maneuver of instrument flying.

Stan Prevost wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...


2) Timing the hold to arrive back at the holding fix right at the EFC
time. A hold can be 4,3 or 2 minutes so you mix them up to make the
time come out right.

Huh? Did you make all that up? The only time you need to cross the holding
fix at any particular time is when you are doing a timed approach from the
hold and you are given a crossing time. EFC time has nothing to do with
anything other than lost com, and there is no requirement or recommendation
from the FAA or anyone else I have ever heard to attempt crossing the fix at
EFC time, nor can I imagine any need to do so.

From the instrument PTS III(C) "Holding Procedures"
"8.Uses proper wind correction procedures to maintain the desired
pattern and to arrive over the fix as close as possible to a specified
time."

On your checkride you need to time your hold to arrive over the fix w/i
about 1 minute of the specified time.


A hold can be 4,3 or 2 minutes so you mix them up to make the
time come out right.

A hold can be almost any time you want unless you are assigned a specific
time, and that time applies to the inbound leg, and is not meant to be
precise.

Right, that's how you cause the aircraft to arrive at the fix at the
ETC.

I don't understand the point of telling people that they shouldn't worry
much about holds because you hardly ever have to fly one.

I never said that.

-Robert, CFII

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...

Stan Prevost wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...


2) Timing the hold to arrive back at the holding fix right at the EFC
time. A hold can be 4,3 or 2 minutes so you mix them up to make the
time come out right.

Huh? Did you make all that up? The only time you need to cross the
holding
fix at any particular time is when you are doing a timed approach from
the
hold and you are given a crossing time. EFC time has nothing to do with
anything other than lost com, and there is no requirement or
recommendation
from the FAA or anyone else I have ever heard to attempt crossing the fix
at
EFC time, nor can I imagine any need to do so.

From the instrument PTS III(C) "Holding Procedures"
"8.Uses proper wind correction procedures to maintain the desired
pattern and to arrive over the fix as close as possible to a specified
time."

On your checkride you need to time your hold to arrive over the fix w/i
about 1 minute of the specified time.


That relates to timed approaches from a holding fix, which is the only time
a crossing time will be specified. No specific tolerances on the time are
given anywhere that I know of. I wouldn't disagree with your "about one
minute", although nobody I know uses tolerances that large in training.
DPEs around here don't seem to specify a time.

A hold can be 4,3 or 2 minutes so you mix them up to make the
time come out right.

A hold can be almost any time you want unless you are assigned a specific
time, and that time applies to the inbound leg, and is not meant to be
precise.

Right, that's how you cause the aircraft to arrive at the fix at the
ETC.


So why do you say to mix up holds having integral minute leg lengths? And
why are holds 4, 3, or 2 minutes?

I don't understand ETC, I assume you mean EFC as you stated in your original
post. It has nothing to do with EFC.

From the Instrument Flying Handbook:

"EFC times require no time adjustment since the purpose for issuance of
these times is to provide for possible loss of two-way radio
communications."


I don't understand the point of telling people that they shouldn't worry
much about holds because you hardly ever have to fly one.

I never said that.



True, you did not explicitly say that. You did say:


"In real life holding is about as common as being hit by lightening.
Even when you do get a hold its usually just a vectored hold, not a
formal procedures."

I don't know your intent with that comment, but it appeared to me to be
implicitly deprecating the importance of holding patterns as a component of
instrument flight and the importance of being proficient in flying them.

Anyway, my experience is certainly different, and "formal" holds are not
uncommon (but not timed approaches).

Stan Prevost wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...
So why do you say to mix up holds having integral minute leg lengths? And
why are holds 4, 3, or 2 minutes?

The 4,3 and 2 are the standard holds a pilot has in his bag. So if he
needs to hold for 7 minutes, he starts with a 4 and then does a 3, and
he's back at the fix, ready for the approach. A 4 minute hold is 1
minute out, a 3 minute hold is 30 seconds out, and a 2 minute hold is a
circle. These are standard training techniques for teaching holds.

I never said that.
True, you did not explicitly say that. You did say:
"In real life holding is about as common as being hit by lightening.
Even when you do get a hold its usually just a vectored hold, not a
formal procedures."

I don't know your intent with that comment, but it appeared to me to be
implicitly deprecating the importance of holding patterns as a component of
instrument flight and the importance of being proficient in flying them.

Because simulator guys don't need to take checkrides, they don't need
to wait for further clearance. They're trying to reproduce real life,
in real life you almost never get assigned formal holds. I think you
take the gamers way to seriously.

-Robert, CFII

Stan Prevost wrote:
From the instrument PTS III(C) "Holding Procedures"
"8.Uses proper wind correction procedures to maintain the desired
pattern and to arrive over the fix as close as possible to a specified
time."

On your checkride you need to time your hold to arrive over the fix w/i
about 1 minute of the specified time.


That relates to timed approaches from a holding fix, which is the only time
a crossing time will be specified. No specific tolerances on the time are
given anywhere that I know of. I wouldn't disagree with your "about one
minute", although nobody I know uses tolerances that large in training.
DPEs around here don't seem to specify a time.

From the PTS for ATP V Instrument
B: Holding
9 ) Arrives over the holding fix as close as possible to the
"expect further clearance" time.

-Robert, CFII

People do care..

"Stan Prevost" wrote in message
...

A hold can be almost any time you want unless you are assigned a specific
time, and that time applies to the inbound leg, and is not meant to be
precise. A default hold is a one-minute inbound leg, but you can make it
longer or shorter if you want and nobody cares. Don't go to extremes, and
go do five minutes, but within wide limits (depends on your speed), it
just doesn't really matter. There is no specification anywhere that a
hold must be four or three or two minutes or combinations thereof. The
only guidance is a one-minute inbound leg for the default holding pattern,
and staying within the maximum distance specified on the chart, if any.
Of course, on a checkride, you ought to strive for the specified time for
the inbound leg.


People do care about timeing in the holding pattern, time is set to one
minute on the inbound leg, (1.5 min at higher altitudes) to for "protected
airspace", this protected airspace is to protect you from other traffic or
terrain in a non radar enviroment. You can ask for more from ATC. But if you
do not ask, he is expecting you to fly one minute legs (1.5 min legs).. and
not extend your pattern to 20nm on your own whim.

BT

"BT" wrote in message
...
People do care..

"Stan Prevost" wrote in message
...

A hold can be almost any time you want unless you are assigned a specific
time, and that time applies to the inbound leg, and is not meant to be
precise. A default hold is a one-minute inbound leg, but you can make it
longer or shorter if you want and nobody cares. Don't go to extremes,
and go do five minutes, but within wide limits (depends on your speed),
it just doesn't really matter. There is no specification anywhere that a
hold must be four or three or two minutes or combinations thereof. The
only guidance is a one-minute inbound leg for the default holding
pattern, and staying within the maximum distance specified on the chart,
if any. Of course, on a checkride, you ought to strive for the specified
time for the inbound leg.


People do care about timeing in the holding pattern, time is set to one
minute on the inbound leg, (1.5 min at higher altitudes) to for "protected
airspace", this protected airspace is to protect you from other traffic or
terrain in a non radar enviroment. You can ask for more from ATC. But if
you do not ask, he is expecting you to fly one minute legs (1.5 min
legs).. and not extend your pattern to 20nm on your own whim.


You will notice that I cautioned against extremes and not exceeding maximum
distances. My intent was to illustrate that the leg time is nothing to
obsess over, within reasonable lengths, and that leg lengths are not limited
to integral minutes, and that EFC has nothing to do with it.

If a holding pattern might be flown at anywhere from, say, 60 knots to
possibly over 200 knots, a one minute leg will range from one to over three
miles, not even considering wind. Since it is really distance that matters,
and over three miles is acceptable (unless Cat E is excluded), that would
correspond to over three minutes for the 60 knot airplane. Variation from
one minute or less to over three minutes would be quite large in term of
pilot technique, and would border on extreme, IMO.

Nonwithstanding all that, an instrument pilot should, IMO, be proficient in
being able to adjust leg timing as required (not just mixing up integral
minute legs) to meet a crossing time for a timed approach. It is just that
when prioritizing workload during a normal hold, precise leg timing is not
at top of the list, especially for slower aircraft.

(Can a helicopter hover for a hold in VMC, or must it fly the hold pattern
with specified legs?)

BT writes:

People do care about timeing in the holding pattern, time is set to one
minute on the inbound leg, (1.5 min at higher altitudes) to for "protected
airspace", this protected airspace is to protect you from other traffic or
terrain in a non radar enviroment.

I distinctly remember, when I was little, seeing a drawing that showed
aircraft in what appeared to be a holding pattern (an oval track
around a fix), and at different levels, with each aircraft dropping
one level on each trip around the pattern. I understood that aircraft
were "stacked" this way while waiting to land. Is that no longer
done? I don't see any mention of it in any of the sources I've
consulted. Or perhaps I remembered something incorrectly? Maybe it
was never done (?). It sounds a bit risky.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
BT writes:

People do care about timeing in the holding pattern, time is set to one
minute on the inbound leg, (1.5 min at higher altitudes) to for
"protected
airspace", this protected airspace is to protect you from other traffic
or
terrain in a non radar enviroment.

I distinctly remember, when I was little, seeing a drawing that showed
aircraft in what appeared to be a holding pattern (an oval track
around a fix), and at different levels, with each aircraft dropping
one level on each trip around the pattern. I understood that aircraft
were "stacked" this way while waiting to land. Is that no longer
done? I don't see any mention of it in any of the sources I've
consulted. Or perhaps I remembered something incorrectly? Maybe it
was never done (?). It sounds a bit risky.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

It is done that way.. but what protects them laterially from adjacent or
crossing airways, other holding patterns, or terrain at low altitude in a
non radar environment.
BT

So last week then?

"....I distinctly remember, when I was little....."