F-4E Story

"Tony" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 26, 10:34 pm, "Danny Deger" wrote:
"Tony" wrote in message

ups.com...

Please provide the URL, Danny

What URL are you refering to.

Danny Deger

I had not found the story, Danny, can you direct me to it? I'm very
interesteed in your experience since I also have what I'm hoping is a
good story in process.


I put the whole thing in the first post. Here it is again.

My god, I couldn't believe it. Captain John "Lips" Fraley had just turned
his F-4E Phantom II in front of me and gave me his six. Santa Claus had
come early and had given me the best present ever. As Lips had briefed, we
had started off with him having the offensive advantage and in two turns I
had made it a neutral fight. We were passing beak-to-beak and I was
preparing for a successful separation - unload, full burner, maybe a couple
of check turns to add a few of angles without bleeding off my own speed.
Piece of cake. Doing a good separation was about as easy as it gets in this
business. And, just getting away without getting shot was going to ****
Lips off - after all he had the advantage at the start.



As I said we were passing beak-to-beak with him to my left. Before the
merge he turns hard right. Big mistake Lips. Big, big mistake. I am going
to make him pay with his life.



I pull hard left and get behind him. This is great -- almost better than
sex. I am lined up for a heat missile. "Fox 2", I call.



Lips is flailing around. He continues turning desperately to his right. I
follow. Time for another heater, "Fox 2", I call again. By the rules of
engagement I had a valid kill and could call "knock it off", but I am having
way too much fun. I have the advantage. I want a guns kill.



Lips is about out of airspeed and ideas. I move into the saddle. I have a
radar lock, my gun site is active and accurate. Pull some more on the stick
and a little bit of right rudder to move the pipper to the middle of his
cockpit and hold it for a second or two. Now pull the trigger, "Guns, Guns,
Guns. Tracking, Tracking, Tracking. Eagle flight knock-it off."



All the trigger did was turn on the gun camera and film the event. In real
combat, 20 millimeter cannon shells would have come out of the M-61 Vulcan
cannon in the nose of my F-4 at the rate of 100 rounds a second. Each shell
has the explosive destruction of half a hand grenade and bit of incinerary
to make sure what is left catches on fire. The cockpit under my pipper that
contained Captain John "Lips" Fraley and his Weapon Systems Officer would
simply have ceased to exists.



After we landed, I couldn't wait for the debrief. Usually the fight is
close and the lead can win the fight in the debrief. After all he is
running the debrief and can say what he wants. But I knew Lips was toast
with this one. Two valid heaters and a stable guns tracking solution was
too much to turn around by spin in the debriefing room. I stopped by the
beer machine and got two cold Buds. This was going to be a two beer
debrief and I was going to love every minute. I was wrong. I met a furious
and humiliated Lips in the hall. "This debrief is over," he fumed.



"But why. Don't you want to know what you did wrong. You turned in front
of me"



"I didn't turn in front of you I led turned you."



I was starting to realize what had happened. Lips was so ****ed that I was
going to separate from a fight that he started out offensive, his mind
melted down and he couldn't tell the difference between turning in front of
an opponent and lead turn for a kill. His ego was so hurt by my upcoming
separation, he made a mistake - a big mistake. This goes to show you the
first rule of air-to-air combat. You aren't fighting another airplane, you
are fighting another human. Get into their head and make them **** up. It
is much easier to win this way that with a few angles hear and a few feet
closer there.



I didn't get the satisfaction of sipping two beers in a long debrief where
we went through the flight one step at a time. Lips stomped off without
having a clue what his mistake was. His loss.



I went to the squadron bar and sat down to gloat. I was proud of myself. I
didn't tell a soul I had just guns tracked the famous Captain Lips. But one
advantage of a two seat airplane is there are WSOs (pronounced Whiss-ohs) in
addition to the pilots. I knew these two guys would get the word out. I
must say really enjoyed those two cold Buds.

"Danny Deger" wrote in message
...

I was starting to realize what had happened. Lips was so ****ed that I
was
going to separate from a fight that he started out offensive, his mind
melted down and he couldn't tell the difference between turning in front
of
an opponent and lead turn for a kill. His ego was so hurt by my upcoming
separation, he made a mistake - a big mistake. This goes to show you the
first rule of air-to-air combat. You aren't fighting another airplane,
you
are fighting another human. Get into their head and make them **** (what
market are you writing for?) up. It
is much easier to win this way that "than" with a few angles hear
"here" and a few feet
closer there.

While we are proofing : ) Neat story!

"Allen" wrote in message
...

"Danny Deger" wrote in message
...

I was starting to realize what had happened. Lips was so ****ed that I
was
going to separate from a fight that he started out offensive, his mind
melted down and he couldn't tell the difference between turning in front
of
an opponent and lead turn for a kill. His ego was so hurt by my upcoming
separation, he made a mistake - a big mistake. This goes to show you the
first rule of air-to-air combat. You aren't fighting another airplane,
you
are fighting another human. Get into their head and make them **** (what
market are you writing for?) up. It
is much easier to win this way that "than" with a few angles hear
"here" and a few feet
closer there.

While we are proofing : ) Neat story!


Thanks for finding the mistakes.

Danny Deger

"Paul Tomblin" wrote

I agree with both of you - you can have too much lingo and confuse people,
but you need enough to give us a "you are there" sensation. It has to
feel real, and you do that by talking across to us rather than down, but
not using terminology we don't know.

Ed Raismus who posts mostly in rec.aviation.military wrote a couple of
books about his Viet Nam experiences - I read the first one, and I'm going
to be ordering the second one because he does a really good job of
striking the right balance.

I'll agree with you, and meet halfway.

I'll still say it is a little over the top with lingo, and that a slightly
better job of explaining the lingo can be worked in, without losing the hard
hitting pace.
--
Jim in NC

"Danny Deger" wrote in message
...

"Tony" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 26, 10:34 pm, "Danny Deger" wrote:
"Tony" wrote in message

ups.com...

Please provide the URL, Danny

What URL are you refering to.

Danny Deger

I had not found the story, Danny, can you direct me to it? I'm very
interesteed in your experience since I also have what I'm hoping is a
good story in process.


I put the whole thing in the first post. Here it is again.

My god, I couldn't believe it. Captain John "Lips" Fraley had just turned
his F-4E Phantom II in front of me and gave me his six. Santa Claus had

It reads OK to me, and I'm no fighter jock. I am curious though why, in
similar types 1v1, after so quickly getting to neutral angles, Lips would
continue with the angles fight when he clearly had to have the energy
advantage. I would be looking for insights into the personality that
foretell his downfall, his history and the wherefore of his fearsome
reputation, and then a wrapup in the full telling of what lead up to events
in the opening paragraph. I'm hooked. When are you publishing?

"Mike Young" wrote in message
. ..
"Danny Deger" wrote in message
...

"Tony" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 26, 10:34 pm, "Danny Deger" wrote:
"Tony" wrote in message

ups.com...

Please provide the URL, Danny

What URL are you refering to.

Danny Deger

I had not found the story, Danny, can you direct me to it? I'm very
interesteed in your experience since I also have what I'm hoping is a
good story in process.


I put the whole thing in the first post. Here it is again.

My god, I couldn't believe it. Captain John "Lips" Fraley had just
turned
his F-4E Phantom II in front of me and gave me his six. Santa Claus had

It reads OK to me, and I'm no fighter jock. I am curious though why, in
similar types 1v1, after so quickly getting to neutral angles, Lips would
continue with the angles fight when he clearly had to have the energy
advantage. I would be looking for insights into the personality that
foretell his downfall, his history and the wherefore of his fearsome
reputation, and then a wrapup in the full telling of what lead up to
events in the opening paragraph. I'm hooked. When are you publishing?



Good points. I may make "Lips" a composite character of more than one
arrogant fighter pilot I had to deal with and expand on "him" some more. He
got his nickname by one time saying in a meeting he was going to rip
someone's lips off.

It will be while before I get the story completed. Anyone know of a good
publisher and/or agent.

Danny Deger

Where did you fly F-4Es, and when? I was a comm-nav avionics tech in the
35CRS at George AFB from Feb 1982 to April 1983, and in the 526TFS/AMU at
Ramstein AB, Germany from May 1983 to May 1986, both assignments working on
F-4Es. I wonder if we crossed paths? I know a fellow in the Minneapolis
area who flew the same F-4Es I worked on at Ramstein after they'd been
reassigned to the Indiana ANG. In fact his first F-4E flight he logged was
in the same tail number I got an incentive ride in a few years earlier,
68-0531. It can be a small world.

I'd suggest you post your story on rec.aviation.military. Besides Ed
Rasimus there are several other former fighter jocks who could give you some
good suggestions about writing and publishing.
Scott Wilson

In article ,
"Danny Deger" wrote:

It will be while before I get the story completed. Anyone know of a good
publisher and/or agent.

Self publish, make more money... www.lulu.com

On Feb 27, 10:26 pm, "Danny Deger" wrote:
brevity snip
It will be while before I get the story completed. Anyone know of a good
publisher and/or agent.

Submit it to any publisher/s of adventure fiction. They're not in the
business of publishing rejection slips. It might be a year before it
gets read, but they can't afford to not read it, because that's what
they -do-.
-----

- gpsman

wrote in message
t...
Where did you fly F-4Es, and when? I was a comm-nav avionics tech in the
35CRS at George AFB from Feb 1982 to April 1983, and in the 526TFS/AMU at
Ramstein AB, Germany from May 1983 to May 1986, both assignments working
on
F-4Es. I wonder if we crossed paths? I know a fellow in the Minneapolis
area who flew the same F-4Es I worked on at Ramstein after they'd been
reassigned to the Indiana ANG. In fact his first F-4E flight he logged was
in the same tail number I got an incentive ride in a few years earlier,
68-0531. It can be a small world.

I flew the ARN-101 equiped F-4E in the 334 TFS at Seymour Johnson from 1981
to 1984.


I'd suggest you post your story on rec.aviation.military. Besides Ed
Rasimus there are several other former fighter jocks who could give you
some
good suggestions about writing and publishing.
Scott Wilson

Thanks, I did this and got some useful input -- Like "don't quit your day
job" :-)

Danny Deger