Anyone ever hear this from a controller

Kobra wrote:
Flyers,

I was flying IFR in VFR conditions and from NJ to Kissimmee, FL (KISM). As
I was approaching KISM the controller asked if I wanted to do a visual
approach or the ILS. Since I was in unfamiliar surroundings and wanted to
practice an ILS I said, "I'll take the ILS."

As I waited for the typical clearance of, "Cessna XXX, 5 miles from XYZ, fly
heading 180, maintain 2000 until established, cleared for the ILS XX
approach." I got, "Ok, just let me know when you want to start the
approach."

Huh!?! I didn't know what to do or say. I asked, "Do you want me to head
for the FAF?" Then another controller came on the frequency and said,
"Cessna XXX cleared for the ILS approach"

So I just headed for the FAF and began to intercept the localizer. The
controller than asked me what I was doing. I was so confused since they
were not using standard terminology. Thoughts anyone.

Confusion is bad so whenever I'm confused I generally do one of two things:

1. Call ATC and tell them I don't understand their instruction and ask
them what they really want me to do.

2. State clearly what I plan to do and then do it if I don't hear
anything to the contrary.

In your case, #1 might be: "Approach, verify that Cessna XXX is cleared
for a full ILS YY approach." I'm trusting that as an instrument rated
pilot you know what a full approach means.

#2 might have been: "Approach, Cessna XXX is flying present position to
the FAF for ILS YY and will fly inbound upon interception."


Matt

Kobra wrote:
Flyers,

I was flying IFR in VFR conditions and from NJ to Kissimmee, FL (KISM). As
I was approaching KISM the controller asked if I wanted to do a visual
approach or the ILS. Since I was in unfamiliar surroundings and wanted to
practice an ILS I said, "I'll take the ILS."

As I waited for the typical clearance of, "Cessna XXX, 5 miles from XYZ, fly
heading 180, maintain 2000 until established, cleared for the ILS XX
approach." I got, "Ok, just let me know when you want to start the
approach."

Huh!?! I didn't know what to do or say. I asked, "Do you want me to head
for the FAF?" Then another controller came on the frequency and said,
"Cessna XXX cleared for the ILS approach"

So I just headed for the FAF and began to intercept the localizer. The
controller than asked me what I was doing. I was so confused since they
were not using standard terminology. Thoughts anyone.

Assuming the approach in question is the ILS 15 at KISM
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0704/05793IL15.PDF the approach is RADAR
REQUIRED and has no IAFs. The clearance "cleared for the approach" with
no vector is defective. With that clearance, you should head for the IAF
of your choice for a "full" approach, but there is no IAF. You can only
get vectors.

On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 00:42:17 -0400, "Kobra" wrote:

Flyers,

I was flying IFR in VFR conditions and from NJ to Kissimmee, FL (KISM). As
I was approaching KISM the controller asked if I wanted to do a visual
approach or the ILS. Since I was in unfamiliar surroundings and wanted to
practice an ILS I said, "I'll take the ILS."

As I waited for the typical clearance of, "Cessna XXX, 5 miles from XYZ, fly
heading 180, maintain 2000 until established, cleared for the ILS XX
approach." I got, "Ok, just let me know when you want to start the
approach."

Huh!?! I didn't know what to do or say. I asked, "Do you want me to head
for the FAF?" Then another controller came on the frequency and said,
"Cessna XXX cleared for the ILS approach"

So I just headed for the FAF and began to intercept the localizer. The
controller than asked me what I was doing. I was so confused since they
were not using standard terminology. Thoughts anyone.

Kobra


It sounds to me like a bogus clearance.

This seems to be an approach with no IAF (at least on the Jepp chart),
implying to me that you should have been receiving vectors to final.
Perhaps the controller taking over thought that controller #1 had given you
vectors to the final approach course, and was confused by your turning of
what he thought was a vector.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Here's a rule to follow:

When you want an instrument approach, tell the controller, EVERY TIME:

a) Which approach you want (use complete title e.g., ILS RWY 6)

b) Whether you want vectors, or wish to start at an IAF,

c) in the case of the latter, WHICH IAF you wish to start at, if there
is more than one.


Gets you and the controller on the same page right away. If he can't
oblige your request, he'll work out another.

There is NO REASON to start an approach without this understanding.

By the way, why would you ever head for the FAF to begin an approach?
No approaches ever start at the FAF.




On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 00:42:17 -0400, "Kobra" wrote:

Flyers,

I was flying IFR in VFR conditions and from NJ to Kissimmee, FL (KISM). As
I was approaching KISM the controller asked if I wanted to do a visual
approach or the ILS. Since I was in unfamiliar surroundings and wanted to
practice an ILS I said, "I'll take the ILS."

As I waited for the typical clearance of, "Cessna XXX, 5 miles from XYZ, fly
heading 180, maintain 2000 until established, cleared for the ILS XX
approach." I got, "Ok, just let me know when you want to start the
approach."

Huh!?! I didn't know what to do or say. I asked, "Do you want me to head
for the FAF?" Then another controller came on the frequency and said,
"Cessna XXX cleared for the ILS approach"

So I just headed for the FAF and began to intercept the localizer. The
controller than asked me what I was doing. I was so confused since they
were not using standard terminology. Thoughts anyone.

Kobra

On Apr 26, 12:42 am, "Kobra" wrote:
Flyers,

I was flying IFR in VFR conditions and from NJ to Kissimmee, FL (KISM). As
I was approaching KISM the controller asked if I wanted to do a visual
approach or the ILS. Since I was in unfamiliar surroundings and wanted to
practice an ILS I said, "I'll take the ILS."

As I waited for the typical clearance of, "Cessna XXX, 5 miles from XYZ, fly
heading 180, maintain 2000 until established, cleared for the ILS XX
approach." I got, "Ok, just let me know when you want to start the
approach."

Huh!?! I didn't know what to do or say. I asked, "Do you want me to head
for the FAF?" Then another controller came on the frequency and said,
"Cessna XXX cleared for the ILS approach"

So I just headed for the FAF and began to intercept the localizer. The
controller than asked me what I was doing. I was so confused since they
were not using standard terminology. Thoughts anyone.

Kobra

When I am doing practices approaches in my local area, I sometimes get
asked where I want to begin the approach (from an official IAF or an
intermediate fix via radar vectors). I have never heard what you
describe, but when I am AT ALL confused or uncertain what the
controller expects, I always say where I'd like to begin the approach.

In your case, and to avoid ANY confusion, I probably would have
followed up with "Approach, Cessna XXXX would like to begin the KISM
ILS at XYZ. Can I get radar vectors to that point?"

--Jeff

On Apr 26, 12:42 am, "Kobra" wrote:
Flyers,

I was flying IFR in VFR conditions and from NJ to Kissimmee, FL (KISM). As
I was approaching KISM the controller asked if I wanted to do a visual
approach or the ILS. Since I was in unfamiliar surroundings and wanted to
practice an ILS I said, "I'll take the ILS."

As I waited for the typical clearance of, "Cessna XXX, 5 miles from XYZ, fly
heading 180, maintain 2000 until established, cleared for the ILS XX
approach." I got, "Ok, just let me know when you want to start the
approach."

Huh!?! I didn't know what to do or say. I asked, "Do you want me to head
for the FAF?" Then another controller came on the frequency and said,
"Cessna XXX cleared for the ILS approach"

So I just headed for the FAF and began to intercept the localizer. The
controller than asked me what I was doing. I was so confused since they
were not using standard terminology. Thoughts anyone.

Kobra

When I do practice approaches in my local area (VFR or IFR), I often
get asked by the controller where I want to begin the approach (an
official IAF or radar vector to some intermediate point). Whenever
I'm not 110% sure the controller and I have the same expectations, I
always transmit that "Piper XXXX would like to begin the approach at
XYZ."

I have never heard what you describe. But in your case, and to avoid
ANY misunderstanding of what happens next, I would have responded
"Cessna XXXX is ready to begin the KISM ILS approach and would like to
start at XYZ. Can you provide radar vectors?" I would not just "head
for" the FAF without response from the controller.

--Jeff

You should have asked for the full ILS with vectors to the IAF/FAF or
specified the IAF if not RV. Just because the controller is being informal,
doesn't mean you have to. I had a similar experience at KCLL once, it leaves
you wondering WTF you did wrong....


"Kobra" wrote in message
...
Flyers,

I was flying IFR in VFR conditions and from NJ to Kissimmee, FL (KISM).
As I was approaching KISM the controller asked if I wanted to do a visual
approach or the ILS. Since I was in unfamiliar surroundings and wanted to
practice an ILS I said, "I'll take the ILS."

As I waited for the typical clearance of, "Cessna XXX, 5 miles from XYZ,
fly heading 180, maintain 2000 until established, cleared for the ILS XX
approach." I got, "Ok, just let me know when you want to start the
approach."

Huh!?! I didn't know what to do or say. I asked, "Do you want me to head
for the FAF?" Then another controller came on the frequency and said,
"Cessna XXX cleared for the ILS approach"

So I just headed for the FAF and began to intercept the localizer. The
controller than asked me what I was doing. I was so confused since they
were not using standard terminology. Thoughts anyone.

Kobra

On Apr 25, 9:42 pm, "Kobra" wrote:
Flyers,

I was flying IFR in VFR conditions and from NJ to Kissimmee, FL (KISM). As
I was approaching KISM the controller asked if I wanted to do a visual
approach or the ILS. Since I was in unfamiliar surroundings and wanted to
practice an ILS I said, "I'll take the ILS."

As I waited for the typical clearance of, "Cessna XXX, 5 miles from XYZ, fly
heading 180, maintain 2000 until established, cleared for the ILS XX
approach." I got, "Ok, just let me know when you want to start the
approach."

Huh!?! I didn't know what to do or say. I asked, "Do you want me to head
for the FAF?" Then another controller came on the frequency and said,
"Cessna XXX cleared for the ILS approach"

So I just headed for the FAF and began to intercept the localizer. The
controller than asked me what I was doing. I was so confused since they
were not using standard terminology. Thoughts anyone.

Kobra

Since he didn't vector you (and I assume your route put you over an
IAF), he probably expected you to fly the PT. Maybe he thought you
were training and your CFII wanted you to fly the full approach (which
we often do).

-Robert, CFII