Vietnam era F-4s Q

I remember the D radar having about 20-25% better range than the E.
the E wasn't all that bad; ran about 50-60 miles on other F4s over
water. Our 390TFS Ds could pickup tankers at 75 miles over Thailand.
(Cherry anchor) I had a USN F4J pilot in my back seat one night
gunship escort mission ( can't for the life of me remember why)and he
marveled at the radar pickup. I asked him why he thought it was soo
good when he was flying the J model. He told me after about 4
'standard' carrier landings the radar wasn't so hot anymore. One
problem we had with th E was overheating on the ground at DaNang in
the summer trying to run bit checks taxiing out. So we left it in
standby and did them airborne.
AFIK we never took a gun pod North. The O6s had an E with a CL drop
and 2 SUU23s on the wings but I don't think anyone below full bird got
to fly it. We did hang SUU23s on our Ds for in-country work. Going
North it was CL, mers, ters sometimes, AIM9s and AIM7s and a jammer
pod, usually in the rt fwd Sparrow well. Ed's on the money on the
36/37 RHAW gear - I monitored the audio and kept an eye on the AZ
strobe when the audio sounded interesting.
As for over-all radar performance TAC blew it when they went to the
storage tube instead of a straight CRT. They threw away at least 3 db
performance. AMAF the average D was about equal to our F102As at RG
AFB. (We had the best radar people I ever met in the USAF). We could
pick up 135s and B52s well over 100 miles over land. FWIW a CRT will
let a trained eye pick up a target as low as minus 3 db compared to
the average noise level - because it's there all the time and the
noise jumps around. In the storage tube the average noise level
becomes the cut-off level and you have a nice clean scope and threw
away maybe 10% of your range capability.
Also - dropping IRSTS was really dumb. I used the Deuce's IR system
and while it had bugs (LN2 leaks, usually) when it was working it was
superb. Very flexible, very sneaky, very good at low level - TAC F100D
low level.
BTW every fighter I flew except the F86F had AI radar in it so I was
no cherry when I got in the F4 - by then I had about 3000 hours
pushing a TV around the sky.
Walt BJ

The better D radar range was due totally to the antenna size. The E had
virtually the same guts (at the beginning) but the smaller radar dish to
accommodate the gun cut down on antenna gain.

On an F-5 size target, head-on, 30 miles was a great pick-up in an E.
Tankers were routinely well outside 70 in beacon mode and plenty of time for
a decent tanker turn point parallel rendezvous.

I really liked the old CRT scope better than the DSCG/MSDG scope of later
years. I missed the backseat hydraulic gauge. I know why they did it, but
should have put a separate video display in for Pave Spike, etc.

Never had radar overheating problems (that I recall) at Eglin in the summer
in E models, or at Kadena or PI in Cs or Ds

Didn't fly the Rhino in combat, but it had decent systems, just not great
systems. Best airframe mod. to the G model was the dual Tach gas gauge in
the rear cockpit (IMHO).

Les

"Walt BJ" wrote in message
om...
I remember the D radar having about 20-25% better range than the E.
the E wasn't all that bad; ran about 50-60 miles on other F4s over
water. Our 390TFS Ds could pickup tankers at 75 miles over Thailand.
(Cherry anchor) I had a USN F4J pilot in my back seat one night
gunship escort mission ( can't for the life of me remember why)and he
marveled at the radar pickup. I asked him why he thought it was soo
good when he was flying the J model. He told me after about 4
'standard' carrier landings the radar wasn't so hot anymore. One
problem we had with th E was overheating on the ground at DaNang in
the summer trying to run bit checks taxiing out. So we left it in
standby and did them airborne.
AFIK we never took a gun pod North. The O6s had an E with a CL drop
and 2 SUU23s on the wings but I don't think anyone below full bird got
to fly it. We did hang SUU23s on our Ds for in-country work. Going
North it was CL, mers, ters sometimes, AIM9s and AIM7s and a jammer
pod, usually in the rt fwd Sparrow well. Ed's on the money on the
36/37 RHAW gear - I monitored the audio and kept an eye on the AZ
strobe when the audio sounded interesting.
As for over-all radar performance TAC blew it when they went to the
storage tube instead of a straight CRT. They threw away at least 3 db
performance. AMAF the average D was about equal to our F102As at RG
AFB. (We had the best radar people I ever met in the USAF). We could
pick up 135s and B52s well over 100 miles over land. FWIW a CRT will
let a trained eye pick up a target as low as minus 3 db compared to
the average noise level - because it's there all the time and the
noise jumps around. In the storage tube the average noise level
becomes the cut-off level and you have a nice clean scope and threw
away maybe 10% of your range capability.
Also - dropping IRSTS was really dumb. I used the Deuce's IR system
and while it had bugs (LN2 leaks, usually) when it was working it was
superb. Very flexible, very sneaky, very good at low level - TAC F100D
low level.
BTW every fighter I flew except the F86F had AI radar in it so I was
no cherry when I got in the F4 - by then I had about 3000 hours
pushing a TV around the sky.
Walt BJ

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police
(Zajcevi) blurted out:


5. Last question is related to Rivet Haste project F-4Es. How many of
these birds were sent to SEA in fall of 1972?

From the summary page of a report titled, "TAC Project 72A-068F: Rivet
Haste SEA Intoduction (U) Final Report" dated April 1973

"The introduction team was in place at Udorn Royal Thai Air Force
Base, Thailand, from 12 November 1972 to 12 January 1973. The 20 Rivet
Hasteaircraft and aircrews were integrated into the 555th Tactical
Fighter Squadron of the 432d Tactitcal Reconnaissance Wing and
consisted of all Block 48 F-4E air superiority aircraft.

During this period of introduction, the Rivet Haste aircraft flew 238
combat sorties for a total of 643.6 combat hours..."

The 20 jets did NOT show up in one wave.

The first increment of 6 Rivet Haste aircraft arrived at Udorn on 20
November...first in-theather flights were flown on 24 November. [note:
none of these 6 had APX-81 Combat Tree]

Second batch of 6 Rivet haste arrived thusly...5 on 18 December 1972,
and number 6 the following day, 19 December (delay was due to radio
failure departing George AFB with the others). All 6 jets had Combat
Tree.

Last batch of 8 arrived at Udorn on 13 January 1973. Only 4 of the 8
had Combat Tree.

As stated above, the first combat mission was 24 November 1972. There
were ONLY three MiG engagements by Rivet Haste jets.

The first was on 22 December by a non-Tree jet, at night , closed to
within 4000' but could not get clearance to shoot.

Second was a during the day, the MiGs popped in and out of clouds
before a shot could be taken. [I infer a VID shot criteria, probably
due to numbers/proximity of radar contacts.]

The last was also at night, during a tail chase a max range AIM-7 shot
was taken...no luck. This was the ONLY missile shot by a Rivet Haste
jet.

I also have a copy of the Project CHECO report "COMBAT SNAP: AIM-9J
Southeast Asia Introduction," but Guy addressed the issue for you.

Juvat

Juvat wrote in message . ..

5. Last question is related to Rivet Haste project F-4Es. How many of
these birds were sent to SEA in fall of 1972?

From the summary page of a report titled, "TAC Project 72A-068F: Rivet
Haste SEA Intoduction (U) Final Report" dated April 1973

This is great stuff, never see such a reports, only Michels Clashes
based on them.
Thanks for posting it.

"The introduction team was in place at Udorn Royal Thai Air Force
Base, Thailand, from 12 November 1972 to 12 January 1973. The 20 Rivet
Hasteaircraft and aircrews were integrated into the 555th Tactical
Fighter Squadron of the 432d Tactitcal Reconnaissance Wing and
consisted of all Block 48 F-4E air superiority aircraft.

During this period of introduction, the Rivet Haste aircraft flew 238
combat sorties for a total of 643.6 combat hours..."

The 20 jets did NOT show up in one wave.

The first increment of 6 Rivet Haste aircraft arrived at Udorn on 20
November...first in-theather flights were flown on 24 November. [note:
none of these 6 had APX-81 Combat Tree]

Second batch of 6 Rivet haste arrived thusly...5 on 18 December 1972,
and number 6 the following day, 19 December (delay was due to radio
failure departing George AFB with the others). All 6 jets had Combat
Tree.

Last batch of 8 arrived at Udorn on 13 January 1973. Only 4 of the 8
had Combat Tree.

Anyway, are this dates correct? Introduction team was in Thailand from
12.11.1972 to 12.01.1973 and first batch arrived on 20.11.1972 (after
8 days), last on 13.01.1973 (1 day after intro team left Thailand).
This is strange, intro team was some kind of ground personel or
something else?

I also have a copy of the Project CHECO report "COMBAT SNAP: AIM-9J
Southeast Asia Introduction," but Guy addressed the issue for you.

Would you mind posting some other details from these both reports?

Ivan

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Ivan
blurted out:

This is great stuff...Thanks for posting it.

You're welcome!

Anyway, are this dates correct?

Yes they are.

This is strange, intro team was some kind of ground personel or
something else?

Yes, staff personel from Eglin AFB (the Tactical Air Warfare
Center_TAWC) and Nellis AFB (the Tactical Fighter Weapons
Center_TFWC).

Their purpose was to aid PACAF in expeditiously phasing the Rivet
Haste aircraft into the combat environment, including orientation,
familiarization, briefing, and evaluating the initial employment of
Rivet Haste jets and crews.

I also have a copy of the Project CHECO report "COMBAT SNAP: AIM-9J
Southeast Asia Introduction," but Guy addressed the issue for you.

Would you mind posting some other details from these both reports?

No problem...anything you're looking for, specifically? The Rivet
Haste report is only 22 pages. The COMBAT SNAP report is about 30 or
so pages long.

Juvat

Juvat wrote in message . ..
After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Ivan
blurted out:

:-)

You're welcome!

Many thanks!

I also have a copy of the Project CHECO report "COMBAT SNAP: AIM-9J
Southeast Asia Introduction," but Guy addressed the issue for you.

Would you mind posting some other details from these both reports?

No problem...anything you're looking for, specifically? The Rivet
Haste report is only 22 pages. The COMBAT SNAP report is about 30 or
so pages long.


Hmm, ideally all those 52 pages will be fine. ;-)

But more seriously, I dont know what is in this reports included,
generaly I am looking for some technical descriptions and info about
operational use.

Cheers
Ivan

At the time of its MiG Kill 66-7550 was sporting the red fin flash and
PN tail code of the 523d TFS from Clark. Did you guys give some of
your jets to them as well as the 555th and 13th TFSs?

Just curious...

I had left the Kun' a month before the planes were transferred (Apr 72) and got
to Holloman just in time to repack my bags for Tahkli. I was under the
impression that all of then went to the 555th but that is just an assumption.
The Combat Sage guys at
Clark could have had their hands on one for testing.
Juvat (...F-16A era)

I mentioned...

At the time of its MiG Kill 66-7550 was sporting the red fin flash and
PN tail code of the 523d TFS from Clark. Did you guys give some of
your jets to them as well as the 555th and 13th TFSs?

Smartace11 posted:

I had left the Kun' a month before the planes were transferred (Apr 72) and got
to Holloman just in time to repack my bags for Tahkli. I was under the
impression that all of then went to the 555th but that is just an assumption.
The Combat Sage guys at Clark could have had their hands on one for testing.

From the handi-dandi aircraft cards (microfiche) on file at
Maxwell...wing assignment and effect date for #66-7550

15th TFW 23 MAR 67,
4th TFW MAY 68,
432d TRW JUN 70,
405th FW MAY 71, (MiG-21 Kill 16 APR 72 13thTFS/432d TRW crew)
3d TFW NOV 72,
8th TFW SEP 74,
51st CW DEC 81,
465th TFS DEC 82,
89th TFS JAN 89,
ZW 31 OCT 89 (removed from service)

According to the maintenance accounting the jet went from Udorn to
Clark (May 71) then to Kunsan (Nov 72). But if your log says
otherwise...most confusing.

Juvat

According to the maintenance accounting the jet went from Udorn to
Clark (May 71) then to Kunsan (Nov 72). But if your log says
otherwise...most confusing.

Juvat

Not sure that is all that unusual though.

We may have been loaned the plane as a part of the Combat Tree ops testing.
Like I said, about I knew was that I was supposed to fly whatever was on the
scheduling board. I need to go to the base and check the full tail number. I
live a mile from the post the bird now sits in front of the other side of
thebase from the Museum.

Ever wonder where the name Juvat came from?

I could well have been mistaken and some of those log pages are pretty hard to
read at times. What I mostly remember was that we had Tree birds for some time
at Misawa in the 475th which went to Kinsan to the 3rd TFW, later to become the
8th TFW. I was in the 391st in Misawa and reported into the 80th at Kinsan in
Feb 72. I left in Feb 72 and reported in to the 8th TFS at Holloman, departing
there TDY to Tahkli under Constant Guard inApr 72 Most of what I "know" about
when the Tree birds were transferred to SEA came from Dean Gushwa who followed
me to HAFB a month after I did. He told me how much the 80th guys were wining
about not getting to go and how one of the birds was shot down shortly after
arriving.

When I saw 550 on the post guarding Area A/C and AFMC HQ I recalled the tail
number, looked it up, and saw that I had flown it.

I make no pretenses about being a historian and I don't track tail numbers.
There are plenty of other guys out there doing that for me. You guys willhave
to figure it all out. NOr do I know much at all about the Tree program except
we flew them and input performance report at debrief. You guys gotta give me a
break, I was a Lt then LOL


Smartace 11's comment about the a/c being transferred in April '72 is most
confusing
as at least the 8 initial Combat Tree birds were transferred earlier, because
kills
were scored by Combat Tree-equipped a/c in February (Lodge/Locher's first
kill, at
night) and March, and the first combat incident involving a Tree-equipped a/c
that's
mentioned in Red Baron occurred on 15 January 1972, with another on 17
January.
There were two Red Baron incidents in Dec. 1971 involving USAF F-4s; in
neither of
them are the a/c credited with having Combat Tree. FWIW, Thornborough says
the
transfers took place in Dec. '71/January '72, so the timing works out.
Michel in
"Clashes" says early in December, but doesn't specifically cite a source for
that.

Guy