Lazy Eight's

On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 13:19:42 -0400, "birdog" wrote in
:

Who the hell's dumb enough to fly up a blind canyon below the rim?

One day in 2002 two owners flew their "forked-tailed doctor killers"
up a blind canyon in southern California:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?...02FA211&rpt=fa
On June 30, 2002, about 1059 Pacific daylight time, a Beech V-35A,
N156U, collided with mountainous terrain while maneuvering in a
canyon near Ojai, California. The pilot/owner was operating the
airplane under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 91. The commercial
pilot, one pilot rated passenger, and another passenger sustained
fatal injuries; the airplane was destroyed. The personal
cross-country flight departed Van Nuys (VNY), California, about
1030, en route to Oceano (L52), California. Visual meteorological
conditions prevailed, and no flight plan had been filed. The
primary wreckage was at 34 degrees 33.503 minutes north latitude
and 119 degrees 28.139 minutes west longitude.

A witness reported that the pilot was one of a group that
routinely gathered on weekends for local flights. They all met at
Van Nuys about 0930 for a preflight briefing. The accident pilot
was to be the lead, and he obtained a weather brief. He then
briefed the group on weather, communications, route, altitudes,
alternates, and safety issues.

The flight consisted of a group of eight airplanes. The airplanes
departed as three groups in formation. Two groups consisted of
three airplanes, and a third group consisted of just two
airplanes. The group formed up at 4,500 feet.

The witness reported that after flying around the area for about
25 minutes, the lead instructed everyone to separate and follow in
trail. The lead and the number two airplane stayed in formation
with the second airplane on the right wing. The rest of the
airplanes followed in loose trail as the leader maneuvered in a
serpentine manner. The flight was now over the Ojai area and
proceeded on a northerly heading. Members of the group reported
that they had flown in this area before.

Witnesses reported that the first two airplanes separated from the
rest of the group. They descended into a canyon to an estimated
500 to 1,000 feet above ground level (agl). The other airplanes
followed about 500 feet behind the airplane that they were
following. The number three pilot estimated that he was about 200
feet above the leader's altitude and number two was between
them. Number three was flying at 120 knots and heard "90." He
noticed that number two was getting closer to the leader, and he
was closing on number two.

As the airplanes proceeded toward the end of the canyon, number
three noticed that the terrain was rising, and the canyon was
getting narrow. Due to his concern about terrain clearance, he
decided to exit the formation. He asked the leader if he was going
to make it, but he had his microphone keyed and did not hear a
response. Other pilots heard someone say, "I don't think so."

A few seconds later, number three initiated a hard pull up to the
left and began to climb. He completed about 15 degrees of turn and
saw the lead airplane collide with trees and terrain at his
2-o'clock position. The number two airplane was a little to the
right of the lead when it also collided with the terrain. The lead
airplane caught fire and then the second airplane caught fire.
The second airplane was N576Q, a Beech S35; see NTSB accident
report LAX02FA212.

Number three estimated that the ridgeline elevation was 6,000
feet, and he cleared the ridgeline by 50 feet. He noted an outside
air temperature of 87 degrees Fahrenheit. He immediately notified
authorities in Santa Barbara, California, and entered an orbit at
8,000 feet. Within 7 to 8 minutes a helicopter arrived and dropped
water on the fire. About 20 minutes later several aircraft arrived
on scene and number 3 departed the area.


While I wouldn't characterize him as dumb, there's the tragic tale of
stunt pilot Frank Tallman:

Frank Tallman, (EAA 75) returning from a flight to northern
California scouting movie locations, was killed when his Piper
Aztec hit near the top of the Santa Ana Mountains east of El Toro
Marine air base, southeast of Los Angeles.


Died April 16, 1978 Frank Gifford Tallman III
The coroner's report said that he died of a heart attack in
flight.

04/15/78 TRABUCO CANYON,CA N5641Y PIPER PA-23 FATAL (1)
33 40N 117 28W UNKNOWN AZTEC N5641Y WHITE W/YELLOW TRIM


N-Number: 5641Y
Aircraft Make: Piper
Aircraft Model: PA-23-250
Serial Number: 27-2755
Year Manufactured: 1965
Aircraft Type: Land
Engine Make: Lycoming
Engine Model: TI0-540 SER
Horsepower: 310
Airworthiness Class: Standard
Seats: 6
Type of Ownership: Corporation
Owner Name: Sale Reported
Street: 11962 S Prairie Ave
City: Hawthorne, CA 90250
FAA Region: Western-Pacific
Country: US
Last Activity Date: 16-Aug-1980


Frank Tallman succumbed as chronicled in NTSB report LAX78FA043.
Below are some newspaper articles which appeared subsequent to Mr.
Tallman's death:

Tallman had over 21,000 flying hours by the time of his death. HE
HAD PILOTED MORE THAN 500 DIFFERENT KINDS OF POWERED, FIXED-WING,
AIRCRAFT, HELICOPTERS, GLIDERS, AND BALLOONS.

"He had just refueled in Santa Monica, there are no,indications of
any pre-impact mechanical malfunctions, he had had plenty of
sleep, he was not taking any medicine, and the autopsy and
toxicological tests all came up negative."

Tallman had departed San Francisco earlier in the day, flown to
the Salinas VOR south of the Bay Area and then followed the coast
to Santa Monica, flying most of the time at less than 1,000 feet.

A flight between Santa Monica and Phoenix:

Tallman dropped off his sole passenger at Santa Monica and
departed for the Phoenix area. Tallman told his passenger he
would follow the coast south to San Diego and then fly eastward to
his destination.

Approximately 20 minutes after departing Santa Monica, Tallman's
light twin flew into the side of a 3,500-foot mountain ridge that
had an east/west orientation [located 16 miles from his home field
SNA]. The aircraft impacted on a heading of 130' with its wings
level and in a slightly nose-down attitude. Ground contact
occurred about 3,100 feet msl, straight-on and with no indications
that the pilot was incapacitated, that the aircraft was
mechanically impaired or that evasive maneuvering had occurred
prior to the time the Aztec struck the trees that covered the
ridge. According to observers near the accident site, the local
visibility was practically nil in heavy rain showers and the
ceiling was approximately 800 to 1,000 feet agl. [The weather was
unrealistically severe that evening including thunder
storms.]
---
Sheriff's deputies said the Piper Aztec aircraft went down during
the night and was sighted Sunday morning in rugged terrain 50
yards from' the top of a 3,500-foot-high ridge line in the
Cleveland National Forest. Tallman had been flying alone.

A helicopter airdropped sheriff's dep. Jim Ohr at the scene, one
mile from the entrance to Holy Jim Canyon, a few hours later.

Ohr said there was massive damage to the right side and front of
the plane, "possibly like he was making a left turn in the last
minute. It looked like it plowed into the cliff."

Tallman was found in the cockpit, with the seat belt On. The
emergency locator transmitter was still sending out signals.

Ohr said there was considerable turbulence over the mountain.
[OC Sheriff: 714 647000, 550 N. Flower St. Santa Ana, CA 92703]
---
Keith McGuire, a National Transportation Safety
Board investigator assigned to the Oakland office

Keith McGuire [ISASI '99 TECHNICAL COMMITTE,ALASKA REGIONAL
CHAPTER; NTSB Northwest Region, Rm. 201, 19518 Pacific Hwy. S.,
Seattle, WA 98188 Regional Director], a National Transportation
Safety Board investigator assigned to the Oakland office,said:

Reconstructing Tallman's last days, McGuire said the flier
had left Santa Monica Airport Friday, April 14, with a client,
British film maker Michael Wilson. The two flew along the
Sierra Nevada Mountains looking for film locations, then
landed in San Francisco where they spent the night.

McGuire said both men retired relatively early. They left
San Francisco Saturday and flew back to Santa Monica,
arriving there at 2:32 p.m.

Tallman dropped Wilson off and told him that he was
going to fly to Phoenix on personal business before returning to
Orange County. After refueling, he left Santa Monica
at 2:54 p.m. the time of his List radio contact

Twenty minutes later, at 3:14 p.m., his plane hit the 3,100-foot
mark of the 3,500-foot ridge just four miles south of Santiago
Peak.

Tallman was killed just two days before his 59th birthday.
When search teams arrived at the brush-covered crash site,
they found his body still strapped into the seat of his plane.
He had died instantly.

Well, let's get this out of the way, then. I regularly exceed 30 degrees
of
pitch in my US-registered aircraft, despite the airplane not being
certified in
the aerobatic category.

Ron, of all people who should know the difference between certificated and
certified...


My 25-year-old airplane has never undergone an annual
inspection.

Nor has any experimental aircraft. A once-a-year CONDITION inspection
though.


I haven't held a medical for about four years, yet I hold a Private
Pilot license and fly my N-numbered aircraft regularly.

Nor do you need a medical to fly a Light Sport Aircraft, which the FlyBaby
certainly is, only a LSA pilot OR HIGHER, which a PPC certainly is.. Being
a homebuilt and certificated as such, it HAS to have an N number.

Sheesh, you kids.

Jim



I'll just sit here and wait for the subpoenas and insurance cancellations,
then....

Ron Wanttaja

On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 13:44:11 -0700, "RST Engineering"
wrote:

Sheesh, you kids.

Shhhh, Jim, I wuz settin' him up! :-)

Ron Wanttaja

On Jun 24, 4:02 pm, Larry Dighera wrote:
On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 13:19:42 -0400, "birdog" wrote in
:

Who the hell's dumb enough to fly up a blind canyon below the rim?


According to observers near the accident site, the local
visibility was practically nil in heavy rain showers and the
ceiling was approximately 800 to 1,000 feet agl. [The weather was
unrealistically severe that evening including thunder
storms.]

'Unrealistically severe' - was this a simulated flight?

On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 15:29:17 -0700,
wrote in om:

On Jun 24, 4:02 pm, Larry Dighera wrote:
On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 13:19:42 -0400, "birdog" wrote in
:

Who the hell's dumb enough to fly up a blind canyon below the rim?


According to observers near the accident site, the local
visibility was practically nil in heavy rain showers and the
ceiling was approximately 800 to 1,000 feet agl. [The weather was
unrealistically severe that evening including thunder
storms.]

'Unrealistically severe' - was this a simulated flight?

From what I remember, eye witnesses reported that they had to pull
over to the side of the road/freeway because the rain was so heavy
they couldn't proceed safely. Apparently the weather was worse than
anyone who experienced it could remember it having been in the past at
that location. It was so bad, that the medical examiner indicated
that Mr. Tallman suffered a heart attack before impact.

A very tragic end for a super guy.

"Ron Wanttaja" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 16:36:11 -0000, wrote:

seems to me the owner's manual on our Mooney says limits are 60
degrees bank and 30 degrees pitch. It also says the airplane should
not be spun.

I could be wrong about that.

No, you are undoubtedly right. But there is no such thing as being
"certified
for 60 degree pitch." The manufacturer can place any warning they wish in
the
manual, but that's not the same as certification. The airplane is
certified in
the normal (or utility) category, in the aerobatic category. But this is
a *G*
limit, not an overt certification limit on bank or pitch angle. If Mooney
said
the limits are 59 degrees bank and 29 degrees pitch, that STILL wouldn't
make it
a "certification" limit.

From what I can tell, Part 91's only comment about aerobatics is that you
have
to wear a 'chute...it doesn't seem to care about the certification
category of
the aircraft. The 91.13 catch-all undoubtedly works, though.

As for practice of these manouvers? Do whatever you like. Probably it
would not be wise to post here, though, except as a hypothetical
question. There's nothing like a written record to influence courts or
insurance companies.

Well, let's get this out of the way, then. I regularly exceed 30 degrees
of
pitch in my US-registered aircraft, despite the airplane not being
certified in
the aerobatic category. My 25-year-old airplane has never undergone an
annual
inspection. I haven't held a medical for about four years, yet I hold a
Private
Pilot license and fly my N-numbered aircraft regularly.

I'll just sit here and wait for the subpoenas and insurance cancellations,
then....

Ron Wanttaja

Actually, this explains a lot that had been made a little confusing by some
of the discussions which I had heard. In other words, just as a type certif
ied aircraft which falls within the LSA limitations of weight, speed and
configuration; the same is true for an amateur built experimental with the
appropriate operating limitations.

That leaves one question about which I am still curious. Do you happen to
know what pilot rating and medical certification requirements would exist
for the initial pilot of a new amateur built experimental (or a new design)
expected to comply with the LSA definitions.

Thanks,
Peter

On Jun 24, 1:46 pm, buttman wrote:
On Jun 24, 7:51 am, "Dick" wrote:





After taking some rigorous Unusual Attitudes Training, now I can't do a
smooth Lazy Eight to save my soul G (or comfort my wife).

One item the course taught me was a Modified Wingover which allowed a blind
canyon 180* turn within a wingspan. Entry at 30* pitch & 30* bank proceeding
to 60* pitch & 60* bank at 90* point to entry. Then at 0 mph, the nose falls
without rudder assist and ball is too the side.

My procedure for the Lazy 8: entry at 15/15* P&B, then up to 30/30* P&B
at 90* to entry and down to 5-10 mph over stall using proper rudder control
and centered ball.

Unfortunately after I look left over the wing to line up with the entry
point and initiate first pitch/bank, I'm then at the 90* point and still too
fast.....

Advice please. Thanks, Dick

Why would anyone want to do a lazy-8 once they've completed their
commercial? I can understand doing an "8's on" (as a matter of fact, I
do them all the time), or a chandelle, but a lazy-8?- Hide quoted text -


Lazy 8 is one of the few maneuvers that is challenging, yet graceful
and relaxing. You can climb to a high altitude into smooth air, sit
back, take a deep breath. The maneuver is very demanding yet it won't
make you sweat or grip the yoke tight. Almost every time I fly solo
(which is not too often because most of my flights are with pax or
students), I do a few. But I don't do 8's-on pylons because I
consider bouncing at a few hundred feet while looking out for
obstacles and traffic is too much sweaty work.

One item the course taught me was a Modified Wingover which allowed a blind
canyon 180* turn within a wingspan.

Impossible.

vince norris

On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 19:51:58 -0400, "Peter Dohm" wrote:

That leaves one question about which I am still curious. Do you happen to
know what pilot rating and medical certification requirements would exist
for the initial pilot of a new amateur built experimental (or a new design)
expected to comply with the LSA definitions.

The FAA made this a bit more confusing than they had to. A couple years back,
they developed a *definition* of a "Light Sport Aircraft," at the same time they
developed two new certification categories, both with "Light Sport Aircraft" in
the names (Special Light Sport Aircraft and Experimental Light Sport Aircraft).

If an airplane meets the Light Sport Aircraft *definition*, then it can be flown
by anyone with a Sport Pilot license or higher. If the aircraft meets the
*definition*, a person with a Recreational/Private/Commercial/ATP license and a
valid Class III medical or higher may fly the airplane. The same individuals
may instead use a valid state drivers license in lieu of the standard medical,
PROVIDING their last medical "died a natural death" (e.g., just expired rather
than getting canceled) and they have not failed an FAA medical since.

It's like the "fourth step" in the standard FAA medical. You can fly operations
requiring a Class I for six months, then fly in operations only requiring a
Class II for the NEXT six months, and finally can execute Private Pilot
privileges for the next year. After that you, you can be a "Private Pilot
executing Sport Pilot privileges" for as long as you have a driver's license and
DON'T flunk an FAA medical.

The certification status of the airplane is immaterial...it can be normal
category, utility, aerobatic, experimental, limited, etc. If it *meets* the
Light Sport Aircraft definition, a Private Pilot can execute Sport Pilot
privileges and use a driver's license in lieu of a medical.

The specific aircraft certification categories (Special LSA and Experimental
LSA) implement simplified processes to gain airworthiness certificates and
simplified maintenance requirements.

I've got more details on my Fly Baby web page:

http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/lsa.html

Ron Wanttaja

On 2007-06-24 10:51:51 -0400, "Dick" said:

After taking some rigorous Unusual Attitudes Training, now I can't do a
smooth Lazy Eight to save my soul G (or comfort my wife).

One item the course taught me was a Modified Wingover which allowed a blind
canyon 180* turn within a wingspan.

Only way to do this would be a Hammerhead, and a Hammerhead done
perfectly as well :-)





Unfortunately after I look left over the wing to line up with the entry
point and initiate first pitch/bank, I'm then at the 90* point and still too
fast.....

Advice please. Thanks, Dick

Hi Dick;

I won't get into the mechanics on Lazy 8's as there are literally
hundreds of competent sources available and I'm sure you have already
read them.
Procedure is only part of the equation when it comes to doing a good Lazy 8.
Contrary to what some might think, doing a good Lazy 8 within specific
parameters is actually not as easy as it might seem. In fact, as an
aerobatic instructor, I'll have even a competent acro pilot demonstrate
a good Lazy 8 to me before moving on into the "good stuff" :-)
The key to doing good Lazy 8's is control coordination and feel. You
are dealing directly with an ever changing dynamic in a Lazy 8. This
means that your aircraft's altitude, attitude, airspeed, and heading
are all in constant flux as you execute the maneuver.
There's a lot more involved than simply being at the right point in
space at the right time, altitude, and angle of bank.
All these things are changing as far as control response goes as the
maneuver progresses. As airspeed decreases, you will need to alter the
angle of bank to compensate. Same for increasing airspeed. All the
while this is going on, you have to be watching your heading change
along the arc of the maneuver.
What I do with acro students having trouble with Lazy 8's is to have
them concentrate on doing a good wingover first. This way, they can
concentrate on the 90 degree reference point, the 45 degree point and
the 135 degree point on one side only at a time.
When you can consistantly perform good wingovers to one side, then the
other, you should then put them together and do Lazy 8's.
Basically, you are dealing with pitch and bank and what you have to do
with varying control pressures with BOTH these parameters to achieve
the desired result.
Try practicing a single wingover to one side. Let the airplane tell you
what you are doing wrong. In aerobatics, (yes, I know the definition as
relates to Lazy 8's :-) the airplane will teach you every time you try
to perform a maneuver what you are doing wrong. What YOU have to do is
WATCH for the difference between what you wanted the airplane to do and
what it actually did do based on the control input you provided.
In a Lazy 8, if you are early or late at a reference point, you are
either early or late in pitch or roll. Ask yourself what you have to
change in control input; then try it again with that change.
Don't overtask on reference points. Learn where you lose and regain
your visual cues vs your reference points vs your high or low wing and
compensate for that.
Basically what you are looking for is smooth fluid unhurried continious
control pressures throughout a Lazy 8.
As I said, contrary to what some might say, a pilot who can perform a
good Lazy 8 is a pilot who has taken the time to become proficient in
the basics, and in all of flying, there is nothing more desirable in a
pilot then being someone who can execute based on a well rounded
comprehension of the basics.
Dudley Henriques