Kills with Guns

John Carrier wrote:


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On Jun 30, 1:54 pm, "John Carrier" wrote:
"Schlomo Lipchitz" wrote in message

...

Whevever I see a TV show about the F-4, all the AF guys do is bitch
about the early models not having a gun. Just how many kills (if any)
have the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F-18 had with guns???

On the Navy side, Zero for the F-14 and F-18. I don't think the USAF
F-15/16 drivers have ever gotten a gun kill either, it's possible the
Israelis have. With modern missile systems, you generally have to drive
through the missile envelope to get to guns, so it makes little sense to
pass up the opportunity and expose yourself more than necessary. A gun
kill
in a post-Vietnam world would also often require entering a
hard-maneuvering
engagement that is generally an unhealthy place to be.

An interesting note. Most Vietnam gun kills were scored by the F-105,
perhaps the least maneuverable aircraft in wide service there.

No Crusader gun kills?

The question was about the modern aircraft. For the F-8, if I counted
correctly, 4 with the gun only, 3 more sidewinder + gun. And one with no
ordnance expended ;-).

And another 10 or so which were Sidewinder only.
John, Given the lack of reliability of the F-8's guns,
how much were you really relying on them?
Was doctrine at the time to take advantage of the situation that
since, in order to set yourself up for a gun shot, you'd drive right through
the Sidewinder's best engagement zone and geometry, that you'd push for the
gun shot, but it was mostly a follow-up if the missile didn't work?


--
Pete Stickney
Without data, all you have is an opinion

"Peter Stickney" wrote in message
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John Carrier wrote:


wrote in message
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On Jun 30, 1:54 pm, "John Carrier" wrote:
"Schlomo Lipchitz" wrote in message

...

Whevever I see a TV show about the F-4, all the AF guys do is bitch
about the early models not having a gun. Just how many kills (if
any)
have the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F-18 had with guns???

On the Navy side, Zero for the F-14 and F-18. I don't think the USAF
F-15/16 drivers have ever gotten a gun kill either, it's possible the
Israelis have. With modern missile systems, you generally have to
drive
through the missile envelope to get to guns, so it makes little sense
to
pass up the opportunity and expose yourself more than necessary. A gun
kill
in a post-Vietnam world would also often require entering a
hard-maneuvering
engagement that is generally an unhealthy place to be.

An interesting note. Most Vietnam gun kills were scored by the F-105,
perhaps the least maneuverable aircraft in wide service there.

No Crusader gun kills?

The question was about the modern aircraft. For the F-8, if I counted
correctly, 4 with the gun only, 3 more sidewinder + gun. And one with no
ordnance expended ;-).

And another 10 or so which were Sidewinder only.
John, Given the lack of reliability of the F-8's guns,
how much were you really relying on them?
Was doctrine at the time to take advantage of the situation that
since, in order to set yourself up for a gun shot, you'd drive right
through
the Sidewinder's best engagement zone and geometry, that you'd push for
the
gun shot, but it was mostly a follow-up if the missile didn't work?

The guns weakness was the length of the flexible feeds from the ammo cans
located behind the cockpit (head high) and the guns which were in the lower
forward fuselage. Under G, some flexing would occur, the belted ammo would
catch and break a link. The trick was to avoid firing at anything over 4 G,
and preferably around 2.5 ... not easy against a turning adversary.

As I noted in an earlier post, you usually flew though the Sidewinder
envelope prior to reaching a gun solution. So ... rely on the missile.
Snap (opportunity) shot at high TCA was still available with guns. The WCS
allowed both guns and missiles to be available, missiles on the pickle and
guns on the trigger.

Pushing for the gun shot was generally ill-advised in a multi-plane
engagement. The time expended from sidewinder envelope (1NM and within 40
degrees in the era) to guns (1000') created a predictable path the free
bogey could exploit.

The Thuds got lots of gun kills because most of the time that's what they
had and all they had. With A/A missile armament, the gun is primarily a
weapon of (somewhat unusual) opportunity and often (in the training
environment) ego.

R / John

An interesting note. Most Vietnam gun kills were scored by the F-105,
perhaps the least maneuverable aircraft in wide service there.

John, there ought to be some interesting stories about those kills.

vince norris

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 22:44:26 -0400, vincent norris
wrote:

An interesting note. Most Vietnam gun kills were scored by the F-105,
perhaps the least maneuverable aircraft in wide service there.

John, there ought to be some interesting stories about those kills.

vince norris

First F-105 kill was by my squadron commander, Fred Tracy on June 29,
1966. He was escorting a Wild Weasel on a raid against Yen Bai when a
MiG-17 came by shooting. Fred took a hit in the cockpit that knocked
out half the instrument panel, then hosed the MiG as he overshot.

Karl Richter and Fred Wilson became the first two Lieutenant MiG
killers on the same strike on the same day.

Dave Waldrop, who was at Robin's memorial service, got two MiGs in one
flight. The second one, he came out of a cloud cover inverted and
dropped between Olds and a MiG just in time to shoot. Olds later wrote
him a letter confirming the kill (and not bitching about the
interuption.) Waldrop now is flying the demonstration F-104 that is
regularly seen at airshows.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

First F-105 kill was by my squadron commander......

Thanks, Ed.

vince norris

On Jun 30, 8:44 pm, vincent norris wrote:
An interesting note. Most Vietnam gun kills were scored by the F-105,
perhaps the least maneuverable aircraft in wide service there.

John, there ought to be some interesting stories about those kills.



Americans should be ashamed to talk about what they did to Vietnam.







vince norris

wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jun 30, 8:44 pm, vincent norris wrote:
An interesting note. Most Vietnam gun kills were scored by the F-105,
perhaps the least maneuverable aircraft in wide service there.

John, there ought to be some interesting stories about those kills.



Americans should be ashamed to talk about what they did to Vietnam.

Certainly the Truman doctrine one step too far.

Is there a nation on the face of the planet that hasn't a skeleton or two in
its closet?

Falcon 109
John

Israeli pilots have made gun kills with the F-15, and I believe, the F-16.
Maybe a Pakistani F-16 gun kill too. And in Venezuela, pilots have also
made guns kills with the F-16. I think all of the US F-14 and -18 kills
have been with Sidewinders.

In Vietnam, the lack of a gun in the F-4 was probably less of a problem than
poor tactical training and ROE/lack of early BVR NCTR. Not to mention poor
missile reliabilities. I say this based on the Crusader's lack of gun
kills. But it's a catchy bitching phrase to talk about the lack of a gun as
a major disadvantage.

TV

"Schlomo Lipchitz" wrote in message
...
Whevever I see a TV show about the F-4, all the AF guys do is bitch
about the early models not having a gun. Just how many kills (if any)
have the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F-18 had with guns???

There was one Navy A-1 Spad MIG kill but I don't recall if he shot it down
(only weapons were guns and Zunis) or forced it down. As I recall (I was a
SAR contorller on Soputh SAR station) the event took place south of Vihn.
Any one know how the kill was achieved?
Art Greer

"TV" wrote in message
...
Israeli pilots have made gun kills with the F-15, and I believe, the F-16.
Maybe a Pakistani F-16 gun kill too. And in Venezuela, pilots have also
made guns kills with the F-16. I think all of the US F-14 and -18 kills
have been with Sidewinders.

In Vietnam, the lack of a gun in the F-4 was probably less of a problem
than poor tactical training and ROE/lack of early BVR NCTR. Not to
mention poor missile reliabilities. I say this based on the Crusader's
lack of gun kills. But it's a catchy bitching phrase to talk about the
lack of a gun as a major disadvantage.

TV

"Schlomo Lipchitz" wrote in message
...
Whevever I see a TV show about the F-4, all the AF guys do is bitch
about the early models not having a gun. Just how many kills (if any)
have the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F-18 had with guns???

[quote=Art Greer;529609]There was one Navy A-1 Spad MIG kill but I don't recall if he shot it down
(only weapons were guns and Zunis) or forced it down. As I recall (I was a
SAR contorller on Soputh SAR station) the event took place south of Vihn.
Any one know how the kill was achieved?
Art Greer

According to Rausa in his book 'Skyraider': 20 Jun 65 flight of four from VA-25 on Midway on RESCAP with 20mm and pods with 2.75 FFARs. Fairly far North --50 NM NW of Thanh Hoa. Alt 10K. Two MiG-17s overshoot and turn in head-on. A-1s Split-S for the deck into a valley with ridge lines both sides and karst formations around. Migs decide to try turning with the A-1s. Altitude about 500 feet above valley floor. One MiG hit in canopy with 20mm and slams into ridge; other bugs out.