AF Academy finished

Subject: AF Academy finished
From: "Jim Baker"
Date: 8/31/03 7:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time

0's when the
military
had to take what they could get. The ranks were decimated by the public
apathy,
and poor pay. I think they are still running the place like a university,
and the
result will be more of the same. They have lost their pride, and their
distinction.
Today, I would no more hire an Academy graduate, than a convicted thief.

Those first two sentences are the statements of an ignorant person. The pay
raises of 1980, 1981 (about 25% in those two years bringing pay to approx.
civilian par for several years) were the highest in decades, before or
since. Also, due to the pay raises and obvious support from the President,
the military was rejuvenated, the antithesis of decimated, when Reagan was
elected following the debacle of the "hollow force" created under Ford and
Carter in the 1970s. So the entire underpinning of your argument is wrong.

I would also disagree that the service academies are run like a "typical"
public university. Have you ever been to one during the school year?There
have been mistakes made recently and through investigations and punishment
have/has been and should be, as the situation unfolds, meted out. Also,
your "sky is falling" statements show you have no historical perspective.
The academies go through periodic "scandals" (I remember them from the
1950's up to today) that are due to their atypically high moral/ethical
standards compared to other universities. I understand the severity of rape
when compared to cheating and lying. The USAF will properly deal with the
problem just as the Army and Navy have properly dealt with sexual
harassment/rape episodes at their academies.

Finally, your last statement shows you to be woefully stupid. God help your
organization with thinking like that. Actually, since the students are
Americans, you probably wouldn't want to hire any Americans. I mean to say,
the few taints the many in your argument, therefore no kid can be trusted if
a few kids screw up. Brilliant thinking.

Jim Baker
ROTC Graduate




Well said and long needed saying.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"Jim Baker" wrote

Those first two sentences are the statements of an ignorant person. The pay
raises of 1980, 1981 (about 25% in those two years bringing pay to approx.
civilian par for several years) were the highest in decades, before or
since. Also, due to the pay raises and obvious support from the President,
the military was rejuvenated, the antithesis of decimated, when Reagan was
elected following the debacle of the "hollow force" created under Ford and
Carter in the 1970s. So the entire underpinning of your argument is wrong.

Using this kind of logic, we must have brought in new Majors, and Colonels
right off the street, rather than promote the dregs of the late 70's, early 80's.
My argument is, that the dregs of the anti-military years, became the Generals
that destroyed the Academies high standards.

I would also disagree that the service academies are run like a "typical"
public university. Have you ever been to one during the school year?

The number of cadets off campus is astounding. It's almost like they spend
most of their time away from the Academy. I go to Colorado a lot.

Finally, your last statement shows you to be woefully stupid. God help your
organization with thinking like that. Actually, since the students are
Americans, you probably wouldn't want to hire any Americans. I mean to say,
the few taints the many in your argument, therefore no kid can be trusted if
a few kids screw up. Brilliant thinking.

I value a college degree, but above that, I value the institution that handed-out
the degree. If I think the institution is just a whore house, or a den of thieves,
then I could care less what paper you are trying to hand me. I'd rather hire
non-Americans if it comes to that. I want to work with people who value
the community. Right now I don't value the institution of the AF Academy,
and whoever shows up with paper from it, can kiss my ass. It's just a
whore house at the tax payers expense.

Joey

"Jim Baker" wrote in message
et...
The USAF will properly deal with the
problem just as the Army and Navy have properly dealt with sexual
harassment/rape episodes at their academies.

Here's where you are completely wrong. Had the USAF properly dealt with the
problem, we would not be at this stage of the game. Hence, they will suffer
just like the Navy and Army did. What we have here is commanders pushing
crap under the rug to save their own ass. Burying stuff has never worked.
The Navy tried it with Tailhook..it didn't work. The Army tried it at
Aberdeen..it didn't work. The *only* way to deal with unpleasant things is
to deal with them. That is what leadership is about and that is what the
USAFA sorely lacked. I just can't fathom how these so called "leaders"
screwed this up so bad.

"Joey Bishop" wrote:

"Jim Baker" wrote


Using this kind of logic, we must have brought in new Majors, and Colonels
right off the street, rather than promote the dregs of the late 70's, early 80's.
My argument is, that the dregs of the anti-military years, became the Generals
that destroyed the Academies high standards.

How many general officers are assigned to the Academy at one time?
Would you believe two--the Superintendent (a 3-star) and the
Commandant of Cadets (1-star). Would you like to name some names of
these "dregs" that destroyed the high standards? Maybe we could look
more profitably at the Academy Board of Visitors--those
Congresspersons and their appointees who were supposedly the
over-sight for the institution.

There's long been a philosophy of the military "eating their
young"--holding a wing commander responsible for aircraft accidents or
discipline breaches. It is reasonable to an extent. A commander should
be in control of his/her organization. But, it often becomes
unreasonable when the commander is punished for actions or results of
which they could have had no warning or which occurred in direct
violation of their orders.

Fortunately, the response of General Jumper and Secretary Roche have
been predominantly reasonable and proper. The initial corrective
policies being established by Sup't Rosa and Commandant Weida seem
equally appropriate.

I would also disagree that the service academies are run like a "typical"
public university. Have you ever been to one during the school year?

The number of cadets off campus is astounding. It's almost like they spend
most of their time away from the Academy. I go to Colorado a lot.

Do you really? Where did you see this "astounding" number? Was it
maybe "Parent's Weekend" over Labor Day? I LIVE in Colorado Springs,
about three miles from the Academy main gate. I frequent the Academy
for retiree services. I'm astounded by how seldom I see cadets in
uniform off the facility. With nearly 4000 cadets in training, it
would seem reasonable to see a lot more. I see plenty of GI's--after
all, we've got Peterson AFB, Schriever AFB, Cheyenne Mt AFS, Fort
Carson and AFA all in Colorado Springs. Could you be mis-identifying
military members for cadets?

Finally, your last statement shows you to be woefully stupid. God help your
organization with thinking like that. Actually, since the students are
Americans, you probably wouldn't want to hire any Americans. I mean to say,
the few taints the many in your argument, therefore no kid can be trusted if
a few kids screw up. Brilliant thinking.

I value a college degree, but above that, I value the institution that handed-out
the degree. If I think the institution is just a whore house, or a den of thieves,
then I could care less what paper you are trying to hand me. I'd rather hire
non-Americans if it comes to that. I want to work with people who value
the community. Right now I don't value the institution of the AF Academy,
and whoever shows up with paper from it, can kiss my ass. It's just a
whore house at the tax payers expense.

Joey

The won't show up with a "paper from it" until they've graduated and
served their country for several years. In that time, they will have
possibly graduated from pilot training, flown multi-million dollar
systems for severals years and maybe been in combat. They probably
have earned an advanced degree and they undoubtedly have supervised
more people, larger budgets, bigger projects with more responsibility
than their civilian counterparts. They are the ones that met the
standard, graduated and succeeded.

The ones who are getting the bad press, are the ones who will be
weededd out. They are in the decidedly small minority.

But, you manage your business the way you think best.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038

"Ed Rasimus" wrote

How many general officers are assigned to the Academy at one time?

I think it took years to get where it is. We're talking about successive
regimes.

Fortunately, the response of General Jumper and Secretary Roche have
been predominantly reasonable and proper. The initial corrective
policies being established by Sup't Rosa and Commandant Weida seem
equally appropriate.

But, the student body hasn't changed their mindset. Just this week more
were arrested with booze and teen whores in a Motel.

Subject: AF Academy finished
From: "Joey Bishop"
Date: 8/31/03 10:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

"ArtKramr" wrote

Sounds like you couldn't make the cut and are bitter and jealous about it.

No Fluffy, I earned my degree from Lewis & Clark, and paid my own way.

I could have taken the easy way, and quit after grade school, as you did,
but I appreciate a quality education, and I appreciate those who earn a
degree from a respected college or university.




WOW ! You are a real hero dumbo. Lewis and Clark is no Harvard or even close.
All my CO's in WW II were West Pointers, brave well trained leaders. I am glad
we had them and not you in spite of your awe inspiring credentials. (yawn)

..

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote

WOW ! You are a real hero dumbo. Lewis and Clark is no Harvard or even close.

Dear Fluffy:

I see you get an erection for Harvard boys. I wasn't born into wealth, so
I got my degree from another source. I'm proud of both my degree, and the
college. I have never once compared my education to Harvard, so I don't
know why you bring that up, unless it's for the sexual matters discussed above.

Subject: AF Academy finished
From: "Joey Bishop"
Date: 8/31/03 11:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

"ArtKramr" wrote

WOW ! You are a real hero dumbo. Lewis and Clark is no Harvard or even
close.

Dear Fluffy:

I see you get an erection for Harvard boys. I wasn't born into wealth, so
I got my degree from another source. I'm proud of both my degree, and the
college. I have never once compared my education to Harvard, so I don't
know why you bring that up, unless it's for the sexual matters discussed
above.



Dear Dumbo,

When Harvard was mentioned you immediately responded with sex and erection. No
one mde that connection but you. Only you. Good thing you never made it to the
Air Force Academy. America owes you a debt of gratitude for staying away.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"Joey Bishop" wrote in message
.. .

The number of cadets off campus is astounding. It's almost like they
spend
most of their time away from the Academy. I go to Colorado a lot.
Joey

Me too. In fact, I live within a couple of miles of the North Gate in
Gleneagle so I guess you could say I go to Colorado a lot. But I don't see
this 'astounding' number of cadets in town that you claim to see. It's rare
to see a cadet in uniform off base, unless it's at a local restaurant with
their parents.
Your attitude towards the Academy must stem from some deep-rooted abhorrence
of the military, and particularly the Air Force. Could it be that you were
somehow unqualified/unable to serve our country in uniform?




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Subject: AF Academy finished
From: "cheyenne"
Date: 8/31/03 11:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


"Joey Bishop" wrote in message
. ..

The number of cadets off campus is astounding. It's almost like they
spend
most of their time away from the Academy. I go to Colorado a lot.
Joey

Me too. In fact, I live within a couple of miles of the North Gate in
Gleneagle so I guess you could say I go to Colorado a lot. But I don't see
this 'astounding' number of cadets in town that you claim to see. It's rare
to see a cadet in uniform off base, unless it's at a local restaurant with
their parents.
Your attitude towards the Academy must stem from some deep-rooted abhorrence
of the military, and particularly the Air Force. Could it be that you were
somehow unqualified/unable to serve our country in uniform?


In his case it is just bitter jealously. There's a lot of that around in the
loser community

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer