CFII Before CFI

On Aug 17, 7:15 pm, "Jim Burns" wrote:
I've read that some part 141 schools will do the CFII before the CFI due to
lower time and PTS requirements for the CFII.
Jim

If you know that you want to end up with both the CFII and the CFI
(ASEL for instance) then getting the CFII first is probably not a bad
idea because instead of one really hard checkride (the initial CFI)
and then a really easy checkride (the CFII add-on), you have to medium
hard checkrides (CFII initial (including all the FOI), then just the
CFI(ASEL for instance) add on. However, if you get the CFII and quite
w/o getting the CFI-ASEL/AMEL/etc then you have an almost worthless
rating.

-Robert

Robert M. Gary wrote
If you know that you want to end up with both the CFII and the CFI
(ASEL for instance) then getting the CFII first is probably not a bad
idea because instead of one really hard checkride (the initial CFI)
and then a really easy checkride (the CFII add-on), you have to medium
hard checkrides (CFII initial (including all the FOI), then just the
CFI(ASEL for instance) add on. However, if you get the CFII and quite
w/o getting the CFI-ASEL/AMEL/etc then you have an almost worthless
rating.

It is indeed one of the problems in aviation today that we have
Flight Instructors who do not read and understand the regulations.
We are NOT CFIs nor CFIIs....The FAR defines our certificates as
FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR. In fact, the remainder of the FARs refer to the
requirement for an AUTHORIZED INSTRUCTOR.

An obvious error in the quoted text above besides the use of CFI,
is the list of ratings that a Flight Instructor may have on his
Certificate. A Flight Instructor Certificate will not show LAND/SEA
as a class rating for the AIRPLANE category rating, only SINGLE
ENGINE/MULTI ENGINE.

If we can stop talking about CFI/CFII and understand the concept
of FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR with RATINGS, the answers are quite simple.

First, a FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR CERTIFICATE for aircraft must be issued
with a CATEGORY and CLASS rating.

Second, a FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR CERTIFICATE for instruments must be
issued with either an AIRPLANE, HELICOPTER, or POWERED-LIFT rating.

Nowhere in my 1977 copy of AC 60-14, Aviation Instructor's Handbook
nor the current CFRs, is there any reference to a CFI/CFII. Where
did you guys pick-up this terminology? Why can it not go the way
of the BFR? Oh...you guys still do BFRs instead of FLIGHT REVIEWS???

Following is the pertinent portion of CFR Title 14, Chapter 1, Part 61.

(c) The following ratings are placed on a flight instructor certificate
when an applicant satisfactorily accomplishes the training and
certification requirements for the rating sought:

(1) Aircraft category ratings—

(i) Airplane.

(ii) Rotorcraft.

(iii) Glider.

(iv) Powered-lift.

(2) Airplane class ratings—

(i) Single-engine.

(ii) Multiengine.

(3) Rotorcraft class ratings—

(i) Helicopter.

(ii) Gyroplane.

(4) Instrument ratings—

(i) Instrument—Airplane.

(ii) Instrument—Helicopter.

(iii) Instrument—Powered-lift.

On Aug 18, 8:32 am, Bob Moore wrote:
Robert M. Gary wrote

If you know that you want to end up with both the CFII and the CFI
(ASEL for instance) then getting the CFII first is probably not a bad
idea because instead of one really hard checkride (the initial CFI)
and then a really easy checkride (the CFII add-on), you have to medium
hard checkrides (CFII initial (including all the FOI), then just the
CFI(ASEL for instance) add on. However, if you get the CFII and quite
w/o getting the CFI-ASEL/AMEL/etc then you have an almost worthless
rating.

It is indeed one of the problems in aviation today that we have
Flight Instructors who do not read and understand the regulations.
We are NOT CFIs nor CFIIs....The FAR defines our certificates as
FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR. In fact, the remainder of the FARs refer to the
requirement for an AUTHORIZED INSTRUCTOR.

An obvious error in the quoted text above besides the use of CFI,
is the list of ratings that a Flight Instructor may have on his
Certificate. A Flight Instructor Certificate will not show LAND/SEA
as a class rating for the AIRPLANE category rating, only SINGLE
ENGINE/MULTI ENGINE.

If we can stop talking about CFI/CFII and understand the concept
of FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR with RATINGS, the answers are quite simple.

First, a FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR CERTIFICATE for aircraft must be issued
with a CATEGORY and CLASS rating.

Second, a FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR CERTIFICATE for instruments must be
issued with either an AIRPLANE, HELICOPTER, or POWERED-LIFT rating.

Nowhere in my 1977 copy of AC 60-14, Aviation Instructor's Handbook
nor the current CFRs, is there any reference to a CFI/CFII. Where
did you guys pick-up this terminology? Why can it not go the way
of the BFR? Oh...you guys still do BFRs instead of FLIGHT REVIEWS???

Following is the pertinent portion of CFR Title 14, Chapter 1, Part 61.

(c) The following ratings are placed on a flight instructor certificate
when an applicant satisfactorily accomplishes the training and
certification requirements for the rating sought:

(1) Aircraft category ratings-

(i) Airplane.

(ii) Rotorcraft.

(iii) Glider.

(iv) Powered-lift.

(2) Airplane class ratings-

(i) Single-engine.

(ii) Multiengine.

(3) Rotorcraft class ratings-

(i) Helicopter.

(ii) Gyroplane.

(4) Instrument ratings-

(i) Instrument-Airplane.

(ii) Instrument-Helicopter.

(iii) Instrument-Powered-lift.

Geez Bob
I admire your quest to change 50+ years of terminology! Yes you are
absolutely correct and I still hear Feds use the term BFR, and from
time to time I even hear someone say ATR (and I know you have been
around that long). If we were to use the full proper terms, we'd run
out of time before we ever got to the meat of the issue! gg
Best Personal Regards
Rocky ATP ASMELS Rotor IFR CFII/RAM AIGI (and I'll bet everyone knows
what all that means)

FARs??? Shouldn't we be using "Code of Federal Regulations, Title 14 -
Aeronautics and Space, Volume (insert #) Chapter (insert #) Part (insert #)
as Regulated by the Federal Aviation Admiistration, Department of
Transportation, of the United States of America"? How on earth would we
know what someone is talking about if we just used "FAR's"?
Duh.
Jim

"Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Aug 18, 8:32 am, Bob Moore wrote:
Robert M. Gary wrote

If you know that you want to end up with both the CFII and the CFI
(ASEL for instance) then getting the CFII first is probably not a bad
idea because instead of one really hard checkride (the initial CFI)
and then a really easy checkride (the CFII add-on), you have to medium
hard checkrides (CFII initial (including all the FOI), then just the
CFI(ASEL for instance) add on. However, if you get the CFII and quite
w/o getting the CFI-ASEL/AMEL/etc then you have an almost worthless
rating.

It is indeed one of the problems in aviation today that we have
Flight Instructors who do not read and understand the regulations.
We are NOT CFIs nor CFIIs....The FAR defines our certificates as
FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR. In fact, the remainder of the FARs refer to the
requirement for an AUTHORIZED INSTRUCTOR.

An obvious error in the quoted text above besides the use of CFI,
is the list of ratings that a Flight Instructor may have on his
Certificate. A Flight Instructor Certificate will not show LAND/SEA
as a class rating for the AIRPLANE category rating, only SINGLE
ENGINE/MULTI ENGINE.

If we can stop talking about CFI/CFII and understand the concept
of FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR with RATINGS, the answers are quite simple.

First, a FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR CERTIFICATE for aircraft must be issued
with a CATEGORY and CLASS rating.

Second, a FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR CERTIFICATE for instruments must be
issued with either an AIRPLANE, HELICOPTER, or POWERED-LIFT rating.

Nowhere in my 1977 copy of AC 60-14, Aviation Instructor's Handbook
nor the current CFRs, is there any reference to a CFI/CFII. Where
did you guys pick-up this terminology? Why can it not go the way
of the BFR? Oh...you guys still do BFRs instead of FLIGHT REVIEWS???

Following is the pertinent portion of CFR Title 14, Chapter 1, Part 61.

(c) The following ratings are placed on a flight instructor certificate
when an applicant satisfactorily accomplishes the training and
certification requirements for the rating sought:

(1) Aircraft category ratings-

(i) Airplane.

(ii) Rotorcraft.

(iii) Glider.

(iv) Powered-lift.

(2) Airplane class ratings-

(i) Single-engine.

(ii) Multiengine.

(3) Rotorcraft class ratings-

(i) Helicopter.

(ii) Gyroplane.

(4) Instrument ratings-

(i) Instrument-Airplane.

(ii) Instrument-Helicopter.

(iii) Instrument-Powered-lift.

Geez Bob
I admire your quest to change 50+ years of terminology! Yes you are
absolutely correct and I still hear Feds use the term BFR, and from
time to time I even hear someone say ATR (and I know you have been
around that long). If we were to use the full proper terms, we'd run
out of time before we ever got to the meat of the issue! gg
Best Personal Regards
Rocky ATP ASMELS Rotor IFR CFII/RAM AIGI (and I'll bet everyone knows
what all that means)

Bob Moore wrote in
46.128:

It is indeed one of the problems in aviation today that we have
Flight Instructors who do not read and understand the regulations.
We are NOT CFIs nor CFIIs....The FAR defines our certificates as
FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR. In fact, the remainder of the FARs refer to the
requirement for an AUTHORIZED INSTRUCTOR.

I'm confused. Doesn't CFI stand for certificated Flight Instructor? Doesn't
BFR stand for biennial Flight Review?

What is it exactly that you have against abbreviations? I use them for many
things - even important things from CRAFT all the way to GUMPS.


The problem with the paragraph you quoted was with the use of the terms.
Abbreviated or not is really irrelevant to the proper use of a technical
term.

Judah wrote:

I'm confused. Doesn't CFI stand for certificated Flight Instructor?

The problem with the terms "CFI" vs. "CFII" is that it leads to the common
confusion that a CFII is a "more advanced" rating/certificate/whatever than
a "just plain CFI". That's not true.

I hold two certificates from the FAA. One is my commercial pilot
certificate, the other is my flight instructor certificate. Each of those
certificates has ratings that go along with it. On my pilot certificate,
I've got "airplane single-engine land" and "instrument airplane". On my
instructor certificate, I've got "airplane single engine" and "instrument
airplane".

What makes this confusing is that on the pilot certificate, having the
airplane rating was a pre-requisite to getting the instrument rating. This
is NOT true for the instructor certificate. While it is common for an
instructor to get the airplane rating before the instrument rating, it
doesn't have to be that way, and in fact, it's not terribly uncommon for
people to get the instrument rating as their initial instructor rating.

If for example, I had done that, I would have been able to give instrument
instruction (i.e. towards an instrument rating or an IPC) in an Archer to a
pilot who already had a single-engine land rating on his pilot certificate,
but I would NOT have been able to give somebody primary training or a BFR
in that same airplane until I also went out and got an airplane rating.

Leave it to the FAA to invent such a bizarre and complex system.

"Judah" wrote in message
. ..
Bob Moore wrote in
46.128:

It is indeed one of the problems in aviation today that we have
Flight Instructors who do not read and understand the regulations.
We are NOT CFIs nor CFIIs....The FAR defines our certificates as
FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR. In fact, the remainder of the FARs refer to the
requirement for an AUTHORIZED INSTRUCTOR.

I'm confused. Doesn't CFI stand for certificated Flight Instructor?
Doesn't
BFR stand for biennial Flight Review?

In many places, CFI stands for Chief Flying Instructor (often a role
specified by the appropriate authority as part of the approvals process) and
flying instructors designated as FI(A) for aeroplanes for example.

Having the word certified is a bit redundant because someone who is not
certified cannot act as a flying instructor legally.

On Aug 18, 7:45 am, Judah wrote:
Bob Moore wrote .146.128:

It is indeed one of the problems in aviation today that we have
Flight Instructors who do not read and understand the regulations.
We are NOT CFIs nor CFIIs....The FAR defines our certificates as
FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR. In fact, the remainder of the FARs refer to the
requirement for an AUTHORIZED INSTRUCTOR.

I'm confused. Doesn't CFI stand for certificated Flight Instructor? Doesn't
BFR stand for biennial Flight Review?

What is it exactly that you have against abbreviations? I use them for many
things - even important things from CRAFT all the way to GUMPS.

Bob is upset that he didn't get accepted into law school so he's
taking it out on everyone else. You are correct that a CFI would not
make it very well if he didn't know common terminology.

-Robert, CFII

"Bob Moore" wrote in message

We are NOT CFIs nor CFIIs....

Weird. Virtually every instructor endorsement in my logbook includes either
"CFI" or "CFII"

-c

Gattman wrote
Weird. Virtually every instructor endorsement in my logbook includes
either "CFI" or "CFII"

My Flight Instructor Certificate states that I have priveliges as a
FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR. The letters CFI appear only as a part of the
certificate number and although one of my ratings is INSTRUMENT-
AIRPLANE, the letters CFII appear nowhere on the certificate.

When indorsing a student's logbook and am asked for my certificate
number, I too place the letters CFI after 1450645 because that is my
certificate number.

As a practicing flight instructor for the past 37 years in addition
to being a Naval Aviator and Pan American pilot, I find that in general,
flight instructors aren't the brightest bulbs on the planet.

Bob Moore
FI ASE-IA
ATP B-707 B-727 L-188