Accepting cable/rope at start.

I would like to gently point out that in high density altitude situations
you may need quite a bit more than 200' AGL to get back to the runway on an
aero tow departure. 200 feet AGL is not a 'magic' number that assures a
safe return to the runway.

.. Bill Daniels


Gently, why? This is exactly the point I was trying to make! I used
the example of the tow plane not climbing sufficiently for mechanical
reasons but density altitude does it just as well. I'm trying to get
people away from the thinking that once they have 200 ft they can
return to the airport. That kind of thinking drives me nuts only
slightly less then hooking up the cable without completing the
checklist. We still have people in our club operation who persist in
doing this even though they've been through safety reviews where
they've agreed it's not the best practice. Goes to show how stubborn
old habits are.

This is in contrast to winch launch where the runway is always available.

Bill Daniels

Is that ALWAYS true Bill? I have never been on a winch though have
quite a few car tows including reverse pully of various arrangments
and I was under the impression that there may be situations where
landing ahead is out though you are to low and/or slow to turn back
safely. I think I learned about his in Piggotts book actually which
was quite an eye opener after my classic American "hook up and floor
it what can go wrong" car tow introduction some years ago.
MM

On 5 Sep, 17:45, wrote:
This is in contrast to winch launch where the runway is always available.

Is that ALWAYS true Bill?

I think it's often true, and probably mostly true, but I don;t think
it's always the case. A winch launch power failure can leave you too
far down the runway to land straight ahead but too low to do much by
way of fancy manoevres.

Ian

"Ian" wrote in message
oups.com...
On 5 Sep, 17:45, wrote:
This is in contrast to winch launch where the runway is always
available.

Is that ALWAYS true Bill?

I think it's often true, and probably mostly true, but I don;t think
it's always the case. A winch launch power failure can leave you too
far down the runway to land straight ahead but too low to do much by
way of fancy manoevres.

Ian

Well, using absolutes is 'usually' a bad idea. Let me say that a cable
break on a winch launch is likely to provide more options to land on the
runway than may be the case with aero tow. In fact, I can't imagine a
situation where I couldn't return to the runway unless the runway is
extremely short and narrow, in which case it isn't a suitable winch site in
the first place.

Normally, by the time you are so high that a straight ahead landing is
impossible, you will have enough altitude to circle back for an into the
wind landing.

If the winch suffers a slow power failure that results in a less than
expected climb angle, I'd suggest releasing early and landing ahead before
the available runway is used up. Even in this case, arriving over the winch
with as little as 200 feet AGL leaves you in the same position you would be
in with an aero tow rope break where a 180 degree turn and downwind landing
is possible.

Please note that I am not advocating 180 turns to a downwind landing on
winch launch since it would be extremely rare that such an option is
appropriate or even needed.

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels wrote:

This is in contrast to winch launch where the runway is always available.

I think this needs a little qualification. Where the winch is on the end
of the airfield I'm sure this is true, but when the winch is out in the
boonies it may not be the case.

I believe there are several clubs in Germany (and one, Jury Hill, in NZ)
with essentially just a landing area and the launch line at one side of
it. It seems to me that at these sites either a very low break or one
high enough to allow a fairly full circuit to be flown should present no
problems.

However, what about the middle region between 50 and 500 feet? On our
field (and yours at a guess) you can land ahead, do a 360 and land ahead
or fly an abbreviated circuit. Those options may well be absent with an
remotely placed winch.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On 5 Sep, 18:50, Martin Gregorie wrote:
Bill Daniels wrote:

This is in contrast to winch launch where the runway is always available.

I think this needs a little qualification. Where the winch is on the end
of the airfield I'm sure this is true, but when the winch is out in the
boonies it may not be the case.

I believe there are several clubs in Germany (and one, Jury Hill, in NZ)
with essentially just a landing area and the launch line at one side of
it. It seems to me that at these sites either a very low break or one
high enough to allow a fairly full circuit to be flown should present no
problems.

The east-west run at Falgunzeon is like that. It is landable, sort of,
between the launch point and winch, but the retrieve is a tractor job
and may take hours. I think I have only seen it used once ...
crosswinds are much nicer!

Ian

On Sep 5, 6:50 pm, Martin Gregorie wrote:
Bill Daniels wrote:

This is in contrast to winch launch where the runway is always available.

I think this needs a little qualification. Where the winch is on the end
of the airfield I'm sure this is true, but when the winch is out in the
boonies it may not be the case.

I believe there are several clubs in Germany (and one, Jury Hill, in NZ)
with essentially just a landing area and the launch line at one side of
it. It seems to me that at these sites either a very low break or one
high enough to allow a fairly full circuit to be flown should present no
problems.

However, what about the middle region between 50 and 500 feet? On our
field (and yours at a guess) you can land ahead, do a 360 and land ahead
or fly an abbreviated circuit. Those options may well be absent with an
remotely placed winch.

I'd question whether it's safe to operate from such a site. Certainly,
I'd never launch from one.

Such sites sound very much the rarity though - at any normal glider
site, a safe landing is perfectly possible from a winch launch failure
at any height.


Dan

wrote:

"Tow failure below 200 ft lower the nose and land ahead, above 200
lower the nose and land ahead or behind", is simple, brief and to the
point.


Yes, I tell students that at 200 ft you can *think* about turning back
to the rwy. In addition to Matt's example of a partial power departure
puting you too far away to make the airport, also consider a departure
in a strong headwind where a 180 on a 200 ft rope break means that you
can't get the glider down before running out of airport (I've seen one
of those, btw).

Calling 200 ft is the minimum, IMHO, and my club teaches that. In
addition, I tell students that on all of my take offs, every few seconds
I say to myself "if the rope breaks now, I'll do fill in the blank".
That way when the rope breaks (above 200) the decision is already made.

I'm rather fond of pulling the rope on a student around 500 on a calm
day. The majority, by far, start an attempt at a down wind landing, when
the best option is really a more or less normal pattern - just keep the
downwind a bit closer in. I tell the student "look, in a 30:1 glider you
can fly a about 5.5 miles from 1000 feet(without a fudge factor). we're
at 500, and the departure end of the runway is less than one mile away".
And then we do the normal pattern and it's easy.

Tony V.


If you are at 300 when the tow fails you CAN turn around but
you aren't pre-programmed to do so. You may have sufficient runway
remaining ahead or have a nice pasture off to the side.

On 4 Sep, 20:55, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
The is related to the other thread on winch launch. I am a firm believer in
not accepting an aerotow rope or a winch cable until the pilot is completely
ready to fly. I teach my students the same.

As a learning routine, I will brief the line person to interrupt the student
pilot while he is doing the pre-flight checklist and agressively insist the
pilot accept the rope RIGHT NOW. If the student asserts his Pilot in
Command authority and tells the line person to back off until asked for the
rope, the student passes the test.

Is that aerotow or winch? I have flown at a couple of sites which
worked n+1 ropes with n tugs, so the pilot at the head of the queue
had a rope on an ready to be hooked to the tug as it lined up. It made
for a nice quick turnaround.

Ian

On Sep 5, 11:55 am, Ian wrote:
On 4 Sep, 20:55, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:

The is related to the other thread on winch launch. I am a firm believer in
not accepting an aerotow rope or a winch cable until the pilot is completely
ready to fly. I teach my students the same.

As a learning routine, I will brief the line person to interrupt the student
pilot while he is doing the pre-flight checklist and agressively insist the
pilot accept the rope RIGHT NOW. If the student asserts his Pilot in
Command authority and tells the line person to back off until asked for the
rope, the student passes the test.

Is that aerotow or winch? I have flown at a couple of sites which
worked n+1 ropes with n tugs, so the pilot at the head of the queue
had a rope on an ready to be hooked to the tug as it lined up. It made
for a nice quick turnaround.

Ian

Ian I think Bill is talking about Aerotow, thats certainly what matt
and I are talking about. the method you mention would be fine with me,
as long as the rope isnt connected to the towplane until im ready. I
envision that your example was using a grid to launch, in which case
everything is ready ahead of time it seems. at our club the glider is
pulled onto the runway, pilot gets in, tug pulls out while pilot is
doing his checklist, rope hooks up, wing goes up and off they go.