Ta-152H at low altitudes

nt (Gordon) wrote in message ...
It is said that when
TA152s were in the air no Me262s were ever lost.

Not all Ta 152s were used in that role. JV 44s Fockes were 4 190D-9s
and a single 190D-11.

seems ridiculous to expect a mere handful of 190s to be able to protect
"Turbos", when every single "silberplatz" had been identified and targeted by
the Allies!

Uh, haven't you heard of the famous "Galland Circus"? The aircraft
were all painted red underneath with white striping so that the field
flak gunners wouldn't shoot down the Doras in an engagement with
Allied fighters. The confirmed aircraft are three D-9s (Red 1, Red 3,
and Red 13) plus one D-11 (v58) Red 4. At least two other D-9s were
flown by two other pilots arriving right before the end. Of the 4
primary craft, two pilots were aces with 104 and 15 kills
respectively. Another D-9 pilot had 2 and the D-11 pilot none.
Apparently, none of the aircraft were lost during operations and no
record of a 262 lost when the "Platzschutzstaffel" was operating.

As far as performance was concerned the Ta 152 in 1945 was inferior to
the latest Mark of Spitfire under 30,000 ft. Between 30,000-35,000 ft
the aircraft were equal. Above 35,000 ft the Ta 152 was superior all
the way up to 50,000 ft!

Which pilot logged a flight to 50k in a Ta 152? Curious to know is all.

Don't have that info as far as Luftwaffe pilots were concerned;
however, Russian NII VVS tested the Ta 152 up to that height. For
simplicity sake let's just say "above 35,000 ft"... as we know the
aircraft had the ability to climb easily up to and beyond 45,000 ft.
It was designed for this purpose as a bomber interceptor.

p.s. The Ta 152 was also fitted with a LGW-Siemens K23 autopilot to
reduce pilot fatigue.

Hmmmm. Most flights by this point in the war were not that long and the K22
and K23 notations I have seen in conjunction with single engine fighters is to
enhance their foul weather performance, as I see this autopilot included in the
"Schlechtwetterjäger" variants of various late war fighters.

Most WW2 aircraft reference manuals I have on the Ta 152 feature the
K23 with no special notations.

Rob

Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."

Uh, haven't you heard of the famous "Galland Circus"?

Gee, Rob, why don't you educate me about it?

Of the 4
primary craft, two pilots were aces with 104 and 15 kills
respectively.

Yes, I know - I have their autographed photos and letters from Mr. 104.
Tracking down and interviewing these guys is what I do. Yesterday, it was four
pilots and a bombardier from the 461st (in town to visit the air museum and
check in on the massive scale B-24 model), but usually, I stick to LW and RAF
guys, including the airfield protection Papagai Staffel.

Apparently, none of the aircraft were lost during operations and no
record of a 262 lost when the "Platzschutzstaffel" was operating.

That had far more to do with Galland's procedures for approaching the field
than superiority of the defending prop fighters, again, only a handful. JG 7
and KG 51 lost literally dozens of aircraft attempting to land or just after
takeoff. Galland learned from their mistakes and did things differently -
resulting in far fewer losses per sortie than either of the earlier units. You
can thank D and the other pilots in the Doras; I think credit goes to Galland
and his combat leadership.

Don't have that info as far as Luftwaffe pilots were concerned;
however, Russian NII VVS tested the Ta 152 up to that height. For
simplicity sake let's just say "above 35,000 ft"...

Don't know of any Abschusse reports claiming a victory at that height for the
Ta. It would be interesting to see one.

Hmmmm. Most flights by this point in the war were not that long and the
K22
and K23 notations I have seen in conjunction with single engine fighters is
to
enhance their foul weather performance, as I see this autopilot included in
the
"Schlechtwetterjäger" variants of various late war fighters.

Most WW2 aircraft reference manuals I have on the Ta 152 feature the
K23 with no special notations.

The actual wartime documents state clearly that the inclusion of the autopilot
was one aspect of the change over to the "Schlectwetterjäger" standard.
Regular FW 190s and Bf 109s had the same upgraded electronics in a 'foul
weather' late war variant. The RLM recognized that they were facing an enemy
that could bomb through overcasts, so the LW couldn't sit on the ground in a
drizzle and wait for clear weather to respond. To make up for this, a
percentage of each "day fighter" production was to be augmented with a nominal
array of electronics and other navaids to allow for a crude all-weather fighter
to be fielded without requiring an all new version to be built.

Gordon

(robert arndt) wrote in message . com...

TA152s were used to protect Me262 on takeoff and landing becuase the
underdeveloped Jumo 004B Jet engines had very restricted acceleration
and could easily be bounced by allied aircraft. It is said that when
TA152s were in the air no Me262s were ever lost.


Not all Ta 152s were used in that role. JV 44s Fockes were 4 190D-9s
and a single 190D-11.

As far as performance was concerned the Ta 152 in 1945 was inferior to
the latest Mark of Spitfire under 30,000 ft. Between 30,000-35,000 ft
the aircraft were equal. Above 35,000 ft the Ta 152 was superior all
the way up to 50,000 ft!

AFAIKS Kurt Tank (the Fw190/Ta152 chief designer) was preceding with
the Ta152B which had shortened and altered wings to improve its
agillity and performance as an 'escort fighter'. It like the Ta152H
had the 36 Liter Jumo 213 engine.

(In fact it was originaly a replacement of the FW190D wing, which had
retained for production reasons the radial engined FW190A wings. The
wing of the proposed 190D based Ra-4D/Ta 153 had a slightly greater
span and area than that of the Fw 190D which was not ideal. This wing
was seen to have certain advantages over the wing originally envisaged
for the Ta 152. In addition to having better aerodynamic
characteristics, the Ta 153 wing was deemed easier to manufacture and
was capable of carrying more fuel. The Luftwaffe consequently proposed
that that the new wing be adopted for the Ta 152B, with the outboard
panels and flaps being extended for the long-span Ta 152H. )

The TA152C was a DD603 43L engined short winged version of the Ta152H.
(Only 3 were built). Tank wanted it becuase he said with this engine
it the aircraft would have better performance at altitude oddly it
ended up in the short 36ft span TA152C. On the surface the aircraft
seems to have had better perfromace at low altitude but only managed
463mph instead of 470mph of the TA152H. Closer inspection shows what
the reason was: The TA152Cs bigger engine managed this without GM-1
nitrous oxide boost.

These was recognition that one fighter wing profile and engine type
could not handle all scenarios thr Luftwaffe had to face.

TA152H-1 Engine: Junkers Jumo 213E-1 twelve-cylinder liquid-cooled
engine rated at 1750 hp for takeoff (2050 hp with MW 50 boost) and
1320 hp at 32,800 feet (1740 feet with GM 1 boost). Maximum speed: 332
mph at sea level (350 mph with MW 50 boost), 465 mph at 29,530 feet
with MW 50 boost, 472 mph at 41,010 feet with GM 1 boost. Service
ceiling was 48,550 feet with GM 1 boost. Initial climb rate was 3445
feet/minute with MW 50 boost. Weights were 8642 pounds empty, 10,472
pounds normal loaded, 11,502 pounds maximum. Wingspan 47 feet 41/2
inches, length 35 feet 1 2/3 inches, height 11 feet 0 1/4 inches, wing
area 250.8 square feet.

Your claim of TA152H-1's opperating at 50,000 feet seems substantiated
by the 48,550 ft service ceiling.

The Ta 152C-1 was powered by a Daimler-Benz DB 603LA twelve-cylinder
liquid cooled engine rated at 2100 hp (2300 hp with MW 50) for takeoff
and 1750 hp at 29,530 feet (1900 hp at 27,560 feet with MW 50). Armed
with one engine-mounted 30-mm MK 108 cannon with 90 rounds, two
fuselage-mounted 20-mm MG 151 cannon with 250 rpg, and two
wing-mounted 20-mm MG252 cannon with 175 rpg. Maximum speed was 227
mph at sea level (356 mph with MW 50), 436 mph at 37,730 feet (460 mph
at 32,810 feet with MW 50). Initial climb rate was 3050 feet per
minute and service ceiling was 40,350 feet. Weights were 8849 lbs
empty, 10,658 lbs normal loaded, and 11,733 pounds maximum. Wingspan
was 36 feet 1 inch, length was 35 feet 6 1/2 inches, height was 11
feet 1 inch, and wing area was 290.89 square feet.



Rob

p.s. The Ta 152 was also fitted with a LGW-Siemens K23 autopilot to
reduce pilot fatigue.

I believe a 2 (or 1 axis) autopilot was standard on even the earlier
FW190A. Its high roll rate made this essential to keep pilot fatique
down.

Fw 190 aces of the western front - Osprey - reads : "the marked increase in
span (over the D9) gave the aircraft a very tight turning circle and a
fantastic climb capability - 15m/s and a ceiling of 14000m". This being the
testimony of a german pilot.
Oberfeldwebel Josef Keil was the sole Ta-152 ace in the war (he flew Ta152
with the JG 301 till the end of the war).

As made obvious by its wings, the Ta-152H was designed as a
high-altitude interceptor. But I am interested in how the Ta-152H
handled at low-to-medium altitudes. How did the Ta-152H compare with
the Fw-190D at such alts? I suppose the ultra-long wings of the Ta
considerably reduced rollrate? Did the Ta have increased
manuverability/tighter turning circle at low alts? (Was wing-loading
increased or decreased?) What about low-speed & stall characteristics?

I recall reading something about another development, the Ta153. Where,
if anywhere, would this version fit into the discussion? Was it
intended to fill a lower-altitude role?

I recall reading something about another development, the Ta153. Where,
if anywhere, would this version fit into the discussion? Was it
intended to fill a lower-altitude role?

The 8-153 projekt roughly approximates what would eventually turn into the Ta
152 H, a high alt interceptor.