Expanded World Class

Roger Hurley wrote:

So, be constructive, iron out the spec, and maybe there
will be interest in designing the glider, and in producing
it quickly enough, in enough places, and in sufficient
quantity to make the one-design concept fly again.
Who knows, maybe more than one one-design will emerge
- just like dinghy racing. And that would be cool.

Do people buy a dinghy just to go sailing most of the time, and race
only once or twice a year? Or are they bought primarily for racing? If
it's the later, we may not learn anything by comparing one design racers
in gliders and sailboats, because most people don't/won't buy a glider
for just racing.

If people are buying gliders mostly for non-contest flying, a new,
"low-cost", one design racer will never be able to compete in value with
the used market. It will either be "priced right" but have lower
performance, or "perform right" and cost a lot more. I think the flaw in
the one-design concept is thinking a lot pilots like the concept enough
to actually make any sacrifice in cost or performance to get one.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Plenty of interesting stuff in this lengthening thread.
Assuming (big assume I know) that the concept of one-design
racing, at the lower end of the performance range,
could be a good idea, could work like dinghy racing
classes, and could attract 'new' people to sporting
gliding, can we arrive at some king of concensus about
the spec. No, don't just say why not the LS4 or the
S-H D(a) because there are almost certainly liability
issues that would preclude an open and widespread re-start
manufacture of those, and they are anyway 'old-technology'
now. Consider also that the 'one-type' could be a
homebuild (a kit) and in the microlight class (see
Euro rules for this), or generally de-regulated or
lightly regulated. The comments about how to minimise
cost are correct for sure, so we are looking at a 'small'
glider, and a simple one, so that it can become numerous
rapidly, both as a multi-manufacturer ready-to-fly,
and as a kit. That's not to say it cannot be sexy
or, in the eyes of the oh so conservative existing
glider pilot community, just look cool - whatever that
is!

Generally, it seems that L/D around 38 would be enough
- that would be better than an old Std Cirrus, not
quite as good as a Discus A, but close to the LS4.
Can we agree on that?

And the cost? What would folks be prepared to pay
for this one-class 'new' glider - ready-to-fly bare
hull? Or as a kit?

Club Class, or Sport Class is fine, but the great leveller
is everybody in exactly the same type, and flying at
the same weight. One of the reasons the idea of one-design
got rubbished was that some of the pilots could not
hack it at that level (of performance) and just blamed
the tool.

So, be constructive, iron out the spec, and maybe there
will be interest in designing the glider, and in producing
it quickly enough, in enough places, and in sufficient
quantity to make the one-design concept fly again.
Who knows, maybe more than one one-design will emerge
- just like dinghy racing. And that would be cool.

Roger H




At 16:36 06 October 2007, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Ian wrote:
There was a condition, wasn't there, that the plans
had to be
available to multiple manufacturers? I suppose that
would have put S-H
off a bit. But then, how many manufacturers ever made
PW-5's?

Two, actually, PZL Swidnik and PZL Bielsko which, despite
the similarity
in names, are competing companies. There is also a
third set of molds
from which one glider was built, the builder was killed
in an off-field
landing accident...

Marc

Generally, it seems that L/D around 38 would be enough
- that would be better than an old Std Cirrus, not
quite as good as a Discus A, but close to the LS4.
Can we agree on that?


No. As Papa3 pointed out in another post *best* glide is pretty
meaningless. It's the L/D at 70 or 80 knots that counts. That's why you
pay $40,000 for a used 40/1 glider when another 40/1 glider, in similar
condition, sells for $26,000.

Tony V.

On Oct 6, 6:26 pm, Roger Hurley
wrote:
Plenty of interesting stuff in this lengthening thread.
Assuming (big assume I know) that the concept of one-design
racing, at the lower end of the performance range,
could be a good idea, could work like dinghy racing
classes, and could attract 'new' people to sporting
gliding, can we arrive at some king of concensus about
the spec. No, don't just say why not the LS4 or the
S-H D(a) because there are almost certainly liability
issues that would preclude an open and widespread re-start
manufacture of those, and they are anyway 'old-technology'
now.

The LS4 is being built by AMS Flight and the Discus is still in
production and available through SH (as the CS model, built in the
Czech Rebublic). The Discus is only just outclassed by newer designs,
and only when conditions are strong. Either should have been the one-
design, being competitive and easy to fly, especially so compared to
first-gen GRP gliders. Heck, so there's so many of both flying today
it would be easy to create a one-design class for either now.

However all that's beside the point. There no demand for a one-design
class. If you want cheap competition, you enter the Club Class and fly
against some of the best pilots around (including some _very_ talented
youngsters who have been flying since they could reach the controls)
with minimal cost. The class is accurately handicapped and nobody ever
complains that a glider has the wrong handicap - everything is down to
pilot skill. Mind you, getting a place in a Club Class comp can be
tricky - it's very popular.

BTW you can't make a "cheap" glider that could be priced competively
against older second-hand gliders. Gliders are hand-built and that
does not scale - they cannont be "mass produced". Neither is the cost
in the materials - the glass and resin in a 15m glider costs little
more than what's in a 13m one. The production cost is in the highly
skilled labour and time that building a GRP sailplane demands.


Dan

We in the old world tried to give gliding a new start
with the one design class but we failed. The reasons
are probably many but at least in my club I think it
was that the PW-5 didn’t look good enough and also
to some extent didn’t perform past the critical 37-39
point. What the world of gliding really lacks to once
more start grooving is a cheap and attractive singleseater
that can be bought by clubs in numbers and that can
be the core in a single design class. If it were possible
to reduce the cost to that of a new family car or there
about it would come into reach of the common man.
I don’t think that such a glider can be built in Europe
because as i see it there are to strong economical
interests to keep thing where they are here. Of reasons
previously mentioned in this thread I also think that
it has the be built with techniques more adopted to
mass production than the now commonly used. I don’t
think that we Europeans will do that in the foreseeable
future. Why don’t you take the lead for a while? America
has the know-how and the guts. Do not wait for us.
You could do it!

Jannica / Sweden

I work in a machine shop with 3 multi-axis CNC machines. We have a
HAAS multi-axis mill, a HAAS lathe and a Precix bed router. We have
full capability to cut molds, parts and design and develop tooling for
a sailplane. We are under contract right now to develop a UAV, and
have made several molds and are making carbon parts right now for the
UAV.

I also am working on a sailplane design that probably would appeal as
a world class sailplane. It is a 15m ship, and is quite nice looking.
We plan on using the Graphlite rods for the spar caps and would like
to use carbon as much as possible throgu out the airframe. The price
has come down and the availability has gotten better.

We also have total control of the design and manufacturing process via
a complete suite of CAD/CAM design and machining software. Solidworks
and Siemens.

Now...................can it be built?

Let the flames begin!

Brad



On Oct 3, 4:12 pm, wrote:
On Oct 3, 5:10 pm, toad wrote:





On Oct 3, 3:52 pm, wrote:

Soon we will see a very good 13m glider ....for $120,000.-only.
And the happy owner will be a World Class Champion.
Was that an original idea behind the World Class?

Richard,

The original idea behind the World Class has been a failure. That much
is obvious (to me) and should be acknowledged. We need to try a new
and different idea. I can see opening the PW5 only contests to
similar designs to increase the number of gliders. More gliders would
mean a better competition.

I personally would propose the following criteria:

a) Fairly strict 1 design.
b) Decent performance for the cheapest cost.

For decent performance I think 35/1 would be good enough. Lower
performance is just frustrating when trying XC.

I would not "dumb down" the design to accommodate early solo pilots,
but aim for entry level comp pilots.

Todd Smith
Grob 102 "3S"

Todd,
OK, some of the aspects of original idea had to be a failure and the
whole undertaking simply didn't work.
But, can you tell which specs were wrong?

* substantially lower costs than then-current new gliders
* easy & safe handling in the air and on the ground
* a single design, stabilized for a period of years
* performance sufficient for badges & challenging competition
* simple construction
* suitable for clubs, private owners & early solo pilots.

What would be your new World Class glider ?
Try to stay below $ 60,000.-please.
Richard/ PW-5/N153PW- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Oct 10, 5:24 pm, Brad wrote:
We also have total control of the design and manufacturing process via
a complete suite of CAD/CAM design and machining software. Solidworks
and Siemens.

Now...................can it be built?

From your post I understand that you can design and build the molds,
but who would actually do the lay up? I understand that's the hard
part...


Dan

Soon we will see a very good 13m glider ....for
$120,000.-only.
And the happy owner will be a World Class Champion.
Was that an original idea behind the World Class?

If I recall correctly, the major aim of the World Class
concept was to make competition soaring more accessible
by keeping the cost down. The lower performance level
and the single-design concepts arose from this aim
[one design to allow mass production and the savings
therefrom]. Unfortunately the masses did not buy the
PW-5.

Perhaps a reasonable class could be built from all
the 13m and below sailplanes that are now around, typically
with 30 or 35:1 L/Ds and easier retrieve characteristics
than bigger ships. A set of rules can be built around
the existing designs without denying entry to newer
and better designs. Contrary to advertised beliefs,
30:1 is plenty for X-C [20:1 is plenty for the 1-26
guys].

But how do we keep the cost under control ? Well,
my only semi-facetious suggestion would be to have
a rule that the top three in any National-level contest
have to offer their ships, fully equipped as flown,
for sale at a fixed price immediately afterwards.
Take $40,000 as a random number. Will anyone really
want to buy a championship with a $60,000 ship if he
has to sell it for $40,000 afterwards ? It would be
snapped up. But the $20,000 ship that wins would probably
not be sellable at $40,000 and the owner could keep
it to fly another day.

As a reference point, the Sparrowhawk is perhaps the
highest performance 13m ship around, and I believe
it still sells for below $40,000. And my aging Russia
would be competitive; it cost me $19,000 new a few
years ago; even with a trailer and flight recorder
and oxygen etc and CA sales tax, it still came in at
well below $25,000.

It could be done. With 60 or so Russias, maybe 50
PW-5s, a growing number of Sparrowhawks and a sprinkling
of Apis and Silents we should have a viable nucleus
of a fleet. And if it works, more people may be enticed
to join in affordable competive soaring.

Ian

Perhaps a reasonable class could be built from all
the 13m and below sailplanes that are now around, typically
with 30 or 35:1 L/Ds and easier retrieve characteristics
than bigger ships.


It could be done. With 60 or so Russias, maybe 50
PW-5s, a growing number of Sparrowhawks and a sprinkling
of Apis and Silents we should have a viable nucleus
of a fleet. And if it works, more people may be enticed
to join in affordable competive soaring.


It's nice to hear there is now consideration to expand the world class
beyond the PW5. I've enjoyed the last two Region 9 competitions flying
my L33. The Solo was designed as a candidate for the world class one
design and, as of this year, has the identical hadicap as the PW5 for
SSA Sports class and OLC. Hopefully it will also be considered as
eligible for the expanded world class.

Horst
L33

On Oct 3, 10:25 pm, wrote:
Perhaps a reasonable class could be built from all
the 13m and below sailplanes that are now around, typically
with 30 or 35:1 L/Ds and easier retrieve characteristics
than bigger ships.
It could be done. With 60 or so Russias, maybe 50
PW-5s, a growing number of Sparrowhawks and a sprinkling
of Apis and Silents we should have a viable nucleus
of a fleet. And if it works, more people may be enticed
to join in affordable competive soaring.

It's nice to hear there is now consideration to expand the world class
beyond the PW5. I've enjoyed the last two Region 9 competitions flying
my L33. The Solo was designed as a candidate for the world class one
design and, as of this year, has the identical hadicap as the PW5 for
SSA Sports class and OLC. Hopefully it will also be considered as
eligible for the expanded world class.

Horst
L33

Russia, Sparrowhawk, Apis, Silent, L33, PW-5....... you all are very
welcome in Club B .

Why you need to include them into World Class ?.Why pretend that
this odd bunch of gliders makes a One Design Class ? They are a very
different gliders. They do not have much in common. O, maybe except
for fact that nobody can make any profit on their production.
Leave the PW-5 alone. If it as a World Class die...it will die, let it
be. Possibly with a Club B we don't need a World Class at all.
Richard/ PW-5