Electric Car? How about a Compressed Air Car?

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 08:45:59 -0800, Jay Honeck
wrote in . com:

From the research below, it does indeed seem that the lithium-oxygen
battery offers the highest energy density that the laws of physics
permit.

Big snip of fascinating stuff

Thanks for posting that, Larry.

I'm happy you found it interesting.


The problem of temperature range must be considered again because
the performance of Lithium-air varies by a factor of 5 over the
-20 0C to +40 0C range. It is important to note that the battery
must be tuned to the application because Lithium-air batteries are
not going to start Minnesota autos in January.

That's the kiss of death, I'm afraid.

That's what I thought at first too. But I would expect the battery to
warm when it is in use, so the it may not be the low end of the useful
temperature range that is limiting.

Perhaps a mix of lithium-air
with lithium-ion batteries would work, but the climate in the US is
too widely variable to rely on a power supply that is so temperature-
sensitive.

It seems that lithium-oxygen technology is still firmly in the
development stage. We'll have to see how it matures before reaching
any firm conclusions about its feasibility for aviation uses. At
least it seem promising.

In article . com,
Jay Honeck wrote:

The problem of temperature range must be considered again because
the performance of Lithium-air varies by a factor of 5 over the
-20 0C to +40 0C range. It is important to note that the battery
must be tuned to the application because Lithium-air batteries are
not going to start Minnesota autos in January.

That's the kiss of death, I'm afraid. Perhaps a mix of lithium-air
with lithium-ion batteries would work, but the climate in the US is
too widely variable to rely on a power supply that is so temperature-
sensitive.


not really a problem. a very small heater can keep it from freezing
without much energy loss..




--
Eduardo K. | Some say it's forgive and forget.
http://www.carfun.cl | I say forget about forgiving just accept.
http://ev.nn.cl | And get the hell out of town.
| Minnie Driver, Grosse Point Blank

Don't be too quick to judge batteries that way. New advances in
lithium-air batteries have come a long way since their inception. The
Tesla electric car is using Lithium-ion batteries which has far less
efficiency, but still making waves. It is not unfeasible in the near
future to have a lithium-oxygen battery to power a light GA aircraft
with the same endurance as gasoline with comparable fuel+engine
weights.


I'm all for electric vehicles - but feel that there needs to be an
order-of-magnitude improvement in battery performance to make them
practical. There have been claims of "revolutionary battery
technologies" for years - but they never seem to pan out. It seems
that there is always a catch. Still. I have faith in technology, and
expect that one day a breakthrough will occur.

David Johnson

Dave wrote in news:085e256a-0987-4249-b920-
:


Don't be too quick to judge batteries that way. New advances in
lithium-air batteries have come a long way since their inception. The
Tesla electric car is using Lithium-ion batteries which has far less
efficiency, but still making waves. It is not unfeasible in the near
future to have a lithium-oxygen battery to power a light GA aircraft
with the same endurance as gasoline with comparable fuel+engine
weights.


I'm all for electric vehicles - but feel that there needs to be an
order-of-magnitude improvement in battery performance to make them
practical. There have been claims of "revolutionary battery
technologies" for years - but they never seem to pan out.

There has been.



Bertie

On Nov 15, 10:56 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dave wrote in news:085e256a-0987-4249-b920-
:



Don't be too quick to judge batteries that way. New advances in
lithium-air batteries have come a long way since their inception. The
Tesla electric car is using Lithium-ion batteries which has far less
efficiency, but still making waves. It is not unfeasible in the near
future to have a lithium-oxygen battery to power a light GA aircraft
with the same endurance as gasoline with comparable fuel+engine
weights.

I'm all for electric vehicles - but feel that there needs to be an
order-of-magnitude improvement in battery performance to make them
practical. There have been claims of "revolutionary battery
technologies" for years - but they never seem to pan out.

There has been.

Bertie

If that is so, why can't I buy a viable electric vehicle now? In
related matters, probably the nearest thing to a practical vehicle
that runs on battery power (around town, at least) is a "Pluggable
Hybrid" Many experimenters have been working on modifying hyprid cars
(such as the Toyota Prius) to run on battery power alone in urban use.
The primary change is to install a larger
battery, and to modify the control circuits appropriately. There is at
least one commercial conversion that you can buy today. The auto
manufacturers are "looking into it", but have nothing
for sale as of yet. You can read about it he http://www.calcars.org/

David Johnson

On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:24:47 -0800 (PST), Dave wrote
in
:

If that is so, why can't I buy a viable electric vehicle now?


Well, you can, but you won't receive it for a while:

TESLA MOTORS NEWSLETTER
November 2007

WAIT LIST OPENED FOR 2009 MODEL YEAR TESLA ROADSTER
Tesla Motors has closed reservations for the 2008 model year Tesla
Roadster. We have logged more than 600 reservations on the books
and filled capacity for our first-year production run. Interest in
the Roadster remains high, and we appreciate all the enthusiasm
and support.

For those who would still like to purchase a Roadster, we have
opened a wait list for 2009 model year cars. Here's how it works:
Simply visit the Tesla Motors website and complete our wait list
form. A refundable $5,000 will hold your place in line. You may
pay with Master Card, Visa, Discovery, American Express, check, or
wire transfer.

Please keep in mind that we have not yet announced pricing for the
2009 model year car. We expect to be able to update you on
pricing, exterior colors, options, and accessories next year. Join
the wait list now at
http://cts.vresp.com/c/?TeslaMotors/...e55/d5bef8ed4d.


CUSTOMER DRIVES
Our customer drive program continues -- nearly 90 customers have
now claimed some drive time in one of the prototype Roadsters.
Several customers, including Michael "Flea" Balzary of the Red Hot
Chili Peppers, have documented the drives on our blogs.

Find Michael's blog along with submissions from our other
customers on the customer blog page at

http://cts.vresp.com/c/?TeslaMotors/...a824529d0/p=57.

LOS ANGELES AUTO SHOW, NOV. 16 TO 25
Tesla Motors will head out to Los Angeles for the annual LA Auto
Show on November 16 to 25. We'll have one of our second-generation
prototypes on display at the Yokohama booth, and we invite you to
stop by and see us.

It's a great opportunity to see the car up close and chat with
Tesla Motors employees. We hope to see you there.

Dave wrote in news:2f905138-4135-4312-a93a-250eb1623342
@w34g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:

On Nov 15, 10:56 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dave wrote in news:085e256a-0987-4249-b920-
:



Don't be too quick to judge batteries that way. New advances in
lithium-air batteries have come a long way since their inception.
The
Tesla electric car is using Lithium-ion batteries which has far
less
efficiency, but still making waves. It is not unfeasible in the
near
future to have a lithium-oxygen battery to power a light GA
aircraft
with the same endurance as gasoline with comparable fuel+engine
weights.

I'm all for electric vehicles - but feel that there needs to be an
order-of-magnitude improvement in battery performance to make them
practical. There have been claims of "revolutionary battery
technologies" for years - but they never seem to pan out.

There has been.

Bertie

If that is so, why can't I buy a viable electric vehicle now?


Well, there are some out ther, OK, but you're not going to do route 66
in them.

In
related matters, probably the nearest thing to a practical vehicle
that runs on battery power (around town, at least) is a "Pluggable
Hybrid" Many experimenters have been working on modifying hyprid cars
(such as the Toyota Prius) to run on battery power alone in urban use.
The primary change is to install a larger
battery, and to modify the control circuits appropriately. There is at
least one commercial conversion that you can buy today. The auto
manufacturers are "looking into it", but have nothing
for sale as of yet. You can read about it he
http://www.calcars.org/


Well, i's down to definition. I used to hav an electric car and it did
work OK, bt it was a pretty old one...
You have to admit, the Li-Po bateries and new motors are a big
imprvement on the stuff around just a few years ago.
The momentum that is gathering with regard to electric vehicles of al
sorts will surely result in something of interst in our lifetimes, at
least.


Bertie

"Dave" wrote in message
oups.com...

Others were quick to mention the horrible thermodynamic efficiency of
compressed air energy storage, but the company that is promoting the Aircar
concept is looking more and more interesting. They seem to have learned a lot
from folks like our Bede and Moller. They have been around for (I believe)
around 15 years but have yet to even make a prototype available for independent
testing.

If you go back in time 10 years, you will find them claiming firm deals on
production factories and that the streets will soon be dark with their vehicles.
There were ripe opportunities for dealerships and other investment opportunities
in their company. Today, little seems to have changed. Are you starting to get
the picture?

Vaughn

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 03:07:50 -0000, Dave wrote in
.com:

The recent discussion of the merits of various electric cars.

At least the OP of that message thread had the courtesy to mark it
Off-Topic.

Larry Dighera wrote in
:

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 03:07:50 -0000, Dave wrote in
.com:

The recent discussion of the merits of various electric cars.

At least the OP of that message thread had the courtesy to mark it
Off-Topic.


Your a real litttle net-nancy ainthca, Larry?


Bertie