2007 US Contest Rules Poll and Meeting Minutes

Come on, guys, play along. What I was "griping" about was the prospect
of arriving back really low, hitting the new finish cylinder just
above the trees and then dumping it into the last field before the
barbed wire fence around the airport. BB implies (well, he goes
further than that; you be the judge) that you would get distance
points only AND get banged with a low finish penalty. Depending on how
the new rule is implemented, you've scored a finish time because if
you'd floated across the fence, you would have completed the task. But
since you're sitting in the dirt staring up at the real finishers, the
rules say you haven't finished the task. So...distance points for the
non-completion minus a penalty for the low finish; in other words,
significantly fewer points that the guy who landed in the field behind
you who didn't get to the cylinder?

I'm not making this up; read below from BB's article (emphasis
added).

"...the 70 points you will lose on the finish, COMBINED WITH the new
larger
distance points, mean that there is less to be lost by landing in
that last nice field on this side of the trees."

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

On Dec 18, 4:28 pm, Chip Bearden wrote:
Come on, guys, play along. What I was "griping" about was the prospect
of arriving back really low, hitting the new finish cylinder just
above the trees and then dumping it into the last field before the
barbed wire fence around the airport. BB implies (well, he goes
further than that; you be the judge) that you would get distance
points only AND get banged with a low finish penalty. Depending on how
the new rule is implemented, you've scored a finish time because if
you'd floated across the fence, you would have completed the task. But
since you're sitting in the dirt staring up at the real finishers, the
rules say you haven't finished the task. So...distance points for the
non-completion minus a penalty for the low finish; in other words,
significantly fewer points that the guy who landed in the field behind
you who didn't get to the cylinder?

I'm not making this up; read below from BB's article (emphasis
added).

"...the 70 points you will lose on the finish, COMBINED WITH the new
larger
distance points, mean that there is less to be lost by landing in
that last nice field on this side of the trees."

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

It's in the sentance structure- He's really comparing the score of a 1
ft short finish to a
missed cylinder speed finish. The spread is less than before.
If you don't get the finish, you don't get the low finish penalty.
John's "social engineering" is intended to take away scoring
incentives for marginal
finishes.
Winter must be upon us.
UH

Winter must be upon us.
UH

Look out the window Hank, winter is here in force.

Todd Smith
3S

It's in the sentance structure- He's really comparing the score of a 1
ft short finish to a
missed cylinder speed finish. The spread is less than before.
If you don't get the finish, you don't get the low finish penalty.
John's "social engineering" is intended to take away scoring
incentives for marginal
finishes.
Winter must be upon us.
UH-

Thanks. I feel much better.

But just in case, I'm going to print out this thread and take it with
me to next year's contests to avoid a situation like we had at
Fairfield where everyone agreed the intent of the rules was almost
certainly X but the letter of the rules was Y.

JB

Chip,
Do I detect a rather large tongue in a small cheek, here? I don't see
any way you could be given a finish circle penalty, if you were scored
as a land-out. Why don't you ask Uncle Hank if us poor standard class
guys will be given the 2% reward, if we are forced to fly with those
big bad 15 meter pukes in a small regionals?
JJ

But just in case, I'm going to print out this thread and take it with
me to next year's contests to avoid a situation like we had at
Fairfield where everyone agreed the intent of the rules was almost
certainly X but the letter of the rules was Y.

JB

On Dec 18, 6:07 pm, JJ Sinclair wrote:
Chip,
Do I detect a rather large tongue in a small cheek, here? I don't see
any way you could be given a finish circle penalty, if you were scored
as a land-out. Why don't you ask Uncle Hank if us poor standard class
guys will be given the 2% reward, if we are forced to fly with those
big bad 15 meter pukes in a small regionals?
JJ



But just in case, I'm going to print out this thread and take it with
me to next year's contests to avoid a situation like we had at
Fairfield where everyone agreed the intent of the rules was almost
certainly X but the letter of the rules was Y.

JB- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Just for you big guy- It's in for 2008.
Actually it was supposed to be in for 07 and we dropped the ball.
UH

On Dec 18, 9:49 am, BB wrote:

2 points per 10 feet?

How about simple the math, you know that thing about common
denominators.
How about stating it as 1 point for 5 feet, nit picky yes but clearer.

Would the cylinder still work the same way if you pierce the edge at
400agl at 120 knots at 1 mile then 15-60 seconds later pull up to
500agl will the scoring program award you which ever is the more
advantageous score? [earlier vs higher?]

Overall the concept is nice because it simplifies the finish and lets
people focus on landing/flying.

Chris

On Dec 18, 6:41 pm, chris wrote:
On Dec 18, 9:49 am, BB wrote:

2 points per 10 feet?

How about simple the math, you know that thing about common
denominators.
How about stating it as 1 point for 5 feet, nit picky yes but clearer.

Would the cylinder still work the same way if you pierce the edge at
400agl at 120 knots at 1 mile then 15-60 seconds later pull up to
500agl will the scoring program award you which ever is the more
advantageous score? [earlier vs higher?]

Overall the concept is nice because it simplifies the finish and lets
people focus on landing/flying.

Chris

If you get into the cylinder either from the side(preferred), or by
pulling up
into the bottom, you get a speed finish.
UH

On Dec 18, 6:07 pm, JJ Sinclair wrote:
Chip,
Do I detect a rather large tongue in a small cheek, here? I don't see
any way you could be given a finish circle penalty, if you were scored
as a land-out.

JJ,

Not until I started reading the rules with this whole concept in mind
that I realized technically you can get a finish (by entering the
finish cylinder) but not complete the task (because you land on the
wrong side of the airport fence). To me "good finish" and speed points
were synonomous. So depending on how the rules are written AND (more
important) how WinScore treats it, I can see a situation--a big finish
circle displaced from the contest site and a low final glide from the
wrong direction (i.e., passing over the center of the finish circle to
get to the contest site) where someone might get distance points and
still get nailed with a low finish penalty.

Stranger things have happened. I alluded to the problem at Fairfield
Reg. 4N in October. We used two different start cylinders on different
days because of the TFR over Camp David. One pilot missed the change
and started out of the wrong cylinder, which was farther from the
contest site. So he did not have a valid start. He didn't miss it by
much so we all assumed he'd get a penalty, as below:

10.8.5.4 A pilot may claim a start when no fix is within the Start
Cylinder; such a start
incurs a penalty. [more details]

But he had flown THROUGH the correct start cylinder before it opened
on the way to the wrong cylinder so technically speaking (per the
Rules and WinScore), he wasn't entitled to a start with a penalty;
i.e., he had no start at all.

The start cylinder is defined by:

10.8.5.2 The Start Point, Start Radius, and MSH define a three-
dimensional Start Cylinder. [end of paragraph]

Per this paragraph, the start cylinder exists 24/7, it's just not open
for valid starts until the CD says it is. And the pilot had flown
through it a few minutes before it opened so he had fixes in the
cylinder. Which means he wasn't entitled to claim a start with a
penalty.

After some spirited late evening, post-refreshment discussion, calls
to the Rules Committee were made ("boy, you guys really screwed up big
time now, what the @!$% do you mean he's not entitled to the
penalty?") and the matter was resolved intelligently.

Perhaps you can understand why I raised the issue. With only a handful
of pilots in this country able to understand the current scoring
formulas, we're at the mercy of WinScore when it comes to points. And
the computer does exactly what it's told to do. If it's told to
subtract X points if a pilot finishes below Y feet, it must also be
told to verify whether that pilot completed the task or otherwise make
certain the penalty isn't applied to distance points.

I can't wait for spring for someone to try this out at a contest...

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

Would the cylinder still work the same way if you pierce the edge at
400agl at 120 knots at 1 mile then 15-60 seconds later pull up to
500agl will the scoring program award you which ever is the more
advantageous score? [earlier vs higher?]

Like Hank said, you get the most advantageous score. Rules aside
though, I would hope any CD who saw this maneuver either in person or
on a trace would slap the pilot with a huge unsafe flying penalty.
Lots of gliders are finishing, and you can't see the guy behind and
above you who you just pulled up into -- and he can't see you either.
This isn't just theory. I have had a glider dive over the top of me
right at the finish cylinder, missing by 20 feet -- good thing I
didn't do any pulling up, or I wouldn't be here writing right now.
Please just cross the cylinder wall at your final glide speed, then
gently slow down and enter the pattern. The manever you describe also
wastes points -- the pilot would have done better by simply gliding at
90 knots to the cylinder wall.

John Cochrane.