F-16 Source Code

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 02:19:03 GMT, Glenfiddich wrote:

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:18:29 -0000, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:


"Glenfiddich" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 15:02:51 GMT, "C.D.Damron" wrote:

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote:
The F-16 is a very popular airplane. I'm just curious who has copies
of
the source code to the plane and it's radar, etc.
Obviously the USAF does, but do the Israeli,
the Belgians, or anyone else?

For some boxes, we did not provide the source code.
This hasn't kept the Israeli's from uncompiling it
and selling the technology to other countries.

The USA is the only country to receive such code from Israel.
Check who owns F-16s - do you seriously imagine that Israel
would sell improved code to an enemy state?

Given that they sold Python AAM's and wanted to sell an
advanced AWACS style capability to China I wouldnt rule
it out.

The Python is an Israeli-developed missile, they have the right
to sell it to any market they're not locked out of.

The AWACS was offered openly, and cancelled at the US' request.
That's wrong?

Now, the subject was F-16 code - how many F-16s does China fly?

Same thing happened with the improved Patriot programming.
Israel had a vital interest in making it work right - and got
enough real-life experience to see what needed fixing

And some sources believe they then sold that know how to China

Some sources will believe anything...

If China got secret US technology, they most likely got it directly
from the US - didn't you follow the news about Chinese activities
inside the USA?
Misdirecting blame is a standard way to deflect attention.
That's been done before - remember how Israeli agent Pollard
was blamed for exposing US agents to the Russians?
And then we heard that Aldrich Ames, the American who wrote
the report blaming Pollard, was the traitor?

http://the-tech.mit.edu/V112/N13/china.13w.html
http://www.aviationnow.com/content/p...10430/aw34.htm

These two tentative reports are years old - and are still unconfirmed.
If there were much truth in them, they'd have been confirmed by now.

The Israelis will sell anything to anybody. They are not "allies" of the
US, they are a money sucking parasite.

Al Minyard

In message - Alan Minyard
writes:

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 22:51:46 GMT, Glenfiddich wrote:

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 15:02:51 GMT, "C.D.Damron" wrote:

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote:
The F-16 is a very popular airplane. I'm just curious who has copies of
the source code to the plane and it's radar, etc.
Obviously the USAF does, but do the Israeli,
the Belgians, or anyone else?

For some boxes, we did not provide the source code. This hasn't kept the
Israeli's from uncompiling it and selling the technology to other countries.

The USA is the only country to receive such code from Israel.
Check who owns F-16s - do you seriously imagine that Israel
would sell improved code to an enemy state?

Well, they are selling advanced radars, using US technology, to
the PRC.

Same thing happened with the improved Patriot programming.
Israel had a vital interest in making it work right - and got
enough real-life experience to see what needed fixing

They had/have nowhere near the US experience with the
Patriot. And they do not have the resources to "improve"
it.

Al Minyard

There isn't a need for any "huge resources", just plain and simple
"look at the drawing/schematic/code/etc., UNDERSTAND what it does,
discover it does something not so well and suggest slight improvement".

For example, when many years ago MiG-25 was considered "out of
envelope" for SAMs we had, the change allowing one to hit MiG-25
was extremly simple (and worked).

And since US experience with Patriot didn't include SCUDs, we actually
had more RELEVANT experience with Patriots than US.

Now every god development must consume US DoD sized budjets...

************************************************** ****************************
* Arie Kazachin, Israel, e-mail: *
************************************************** ****************************
NOTE: before replying, leave only letters in my domain-name. Sorry, SPAM trap.
___
.__/ |
| O /
_/ /
| | I HAVE NOWHERE ELSE TO GO !!!
| |
| | |
| | /O\
| _ \_______[|(.)|]_______/
| * / \ o ++ O ++ o
| | |
| |
\ \_)
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\_|

"Gene Storey" wrote in message news:JRiBb.5676$US3.4579@okepread03...
The F-16 was built as an international fighter, and those countries that do
their own development and depot work, would have an interest in all
aspects of the flight computers. The radar and various other computer
code would also be available. I know the radar software was available
to our university, as many of us wrote algorithms against it for our Masters.
My groups project was to better track turbine velocities of targets, as a
possible enhancement to cruise missile detection. One would hope that
today the missiles would be designed to hide the turbine :-)

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote
The F-16 is a very popular airplane. I'm just curious who has copies of
the source code to the plane and it's radar, etc. Obviously the USAF does,
but do the Israeli, the Belgians, or anyone else?


What!! I thought that the radar was the most top-secret portion of the
plane, and that the radar algorithms were a military secret. They hand it
out to graduate students??

Could you have gotten access to the flight control software? Could
the Belgian government?

-Thanks

"Arie Kazachin" wrote in message
...
In message - Alan Minyard
writes:

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 22:51:46 GMT, Glenfiddich
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 15:02:51 GMT, "C.D.Damron" wrote:

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote:
The F-16 is a very popular airplane. I'm just curious who has copies
of
the source code to the plane and it's radar, etc.
Obviously the USAF does, but do the Israeli,
the Belgians, or anyone else?

For some boxes, we did not provide the source code. This hasn't kept
the
Israeli's from uncompiling it and selling the technology to other
countries.

The USA is the only country to receive such code from Israel.
Check who owns F-16s - do you seriously imagine that Israel
would sell improved code to an enemy state?

Well, they are selling advanced radars, using US technology, to
the PRC.

Same thing happened with the improved Patriot programming.
Israel had a vital interest in making it work right - and got
enough real-life experience to see what needed fixing

They had/have nowhere near the US experience with the
Patriot. And they do not have the resources to "improve"
it.

Al Minyard

There isn't a need for any "huge resources", just plain and simple
"look at the drawing/schematic/code/etc., UNDERSTAND what it does,
discover it does something not so well and suggest slight improvement".

For example, when many years ago MiG-25 was considered "out of
envelope" for SAMs we had, the change allowing one to hit MiG-25
was extremly simple (and worked).

And since US experience with Patriot didn't include SCUDs, we actually
had more RELEVANT experience with Patriots than US.

Please. Israel had zero experience with Scud interception prior to the US
trying to make the early generation patriot do it during ODS. The only
reference I have seen of *any* Israeli involvement in improving Patriot was
their provision of *data* from their own Patriot batteries, which was used
by the folks at Huntsville to improve the radar range gate performance. That
data is noce--however, it does not translate to being an "Israeli
improvement" of the Patriot system. See:

www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~johnson/tutorials/ STAMP_PARCEL/PARCEL_Exercise.pdf

Brooks



Now every god development must consume US DoD sized budjets...

No, but apparently most Israeli defense developments must consume a chunk
*of* the US budget, seeing as how we end up footing the bill for a lot of
them.

Brooks

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 02:19:03 GMT, Glenfiddich
wrote:

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:18:29 -0000, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:


"Glenfiddich" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 15:02:51 GMT, "C.D.Damron" wrote:

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote:
The F-16 is a very popular airplane. I'm just curious who has
copies
of
the source code to the plane and it's radar, etc.
Obviously the USAF does, but do the Israeli,
the Belgians, or anyone else?

For some boxes, we did not provide the source code.
This hasn't kept the Israeli's from uncompiling it
and selling the technology to other countries.

The USA is the only country to receive such code from Israel.
Check who owns F-16s - do you seriously imagine that Israel
would sell improved code to an enemy state?

Given that they sold Python AAM's and wanted to sell an
advanced AWACS style capability to China I wouldnt rule
it out.

The Python is an Israeli-developed missile, they have the right
to sell it to any market they're not locked out of.

The AWACS was offered openly, and cancelled at the US' request.
That's wrong?

Now, the subject was F-16 code - how many F-16s does China fly?

Same thing happened with the improved Patriot programming.
Israel had a vital interest in making it work right - and got
enough real-life experience to see what needed fixing

And some sources believe they then sold that know how to China

Some sources will believe anything...

If China got secret US technology, they most likely got it directly
from the US - didn't you follow the news about Chinese activities
inside the USA?
Misdirecting blame is a standard way to deflect attention.
That's been done before - remember how Israeli agent Pollard
was blamed for exposing US agents to the Russians?
And then we heard that Aldrich Ames, the American who wrote
the report blaming Pollard, was the traitor?

http://the-tech.mit.edu/V112/N13/china.13w.html
http://www.aviationnow.com/content/p...10430/aw34.htm

These two tentative reports are years old - and are still unconfirmed.
If there were much truth in them, they'd have been confirmed by now.

The Israelis will sell anything to anybody. They are not "allies" of the
US, they are a money sucking parasite.

And there it is. With all the underlying anti-semitism building up in this
thread, I was waiting for someone to just come right out and say something
flagrantly neo-Nazi like that.

Its those crafty bloodsucking Jews! Zieg Heil! Don't you know they eat
babies too?

Never mind the fact that France and Germany were cheerfully selling Saddam
Hussein brand new Roland surface to air missiles, land mines, ammunition and
cruise missiles only a couple of months before our invasion! It's the damn
dirty Jews we should all be worried about!

Or that Russia sent military advisors and GPS jamming equipment to help
Saddam repel our invasion and kill our boys.....everyone knows the Jews are
the real problem!

And while China isn't exactly our best friend out there, military
hostilities between us and them are nowhere near imminent... as they were
with Saddam. Now I don't advocate Israel selling high-tech weapons to China,
but I really don't feel it's a huge Jew conspiracy either. They know we're
their friends. And since we're being honest lets face facts here; China got
more sensitive defense technology from us under Clinton than they could ever
hope to get from Israel. And you can bet that if trade restrictions were
relaxed with China tomorrow, Northrop, McDonnell Douglass and LockMart reps
would be on the first plane over there trying to sell them AWACS and F-16s
directly.

It's all just business. Now run along; your white sheet is probably getting
wrinkled and you have crosses to burn. Watch out for those Jews!

Thomas J. Paladino Jr.
New York City

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote
"Gene Storey" wrote
The F-16 was built as an international fighter, and those countries that do
their own development and depot work, would have an interest in all
aspects of the flight computers. The radar and various other computer
code would also be available. I know the radar software was available
to our university, as many of us wrote algorithms against it for our Masters.
My groups project was to better track turbine velocities of targets, as a
possible enhancement to cruise missile detection. One would hope that
today the missiles would be designed to hide the turbine :-)

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote
The F-16 is a very popular airplane. I'm just curious who has copies of
the source code to the plane and it's radar, etc. Obviously the USAF does,
but do the Israeli, the Belgians, or anyone else?


What!! I thought that the radar was the most top-secret portion of the
plane, and that the radar algorithms were a military secret. They hand it
out to graduate students??

Could you have gotten access to the flight control software? Could
the Belgian government?

Yes, the Belgium depot at Gosselies was heavily involved with the F-16
MLU (Mid-Life Upgrade).

Yes, all software that was meant to be changed over time is available to
several universities in their engineering schools. The highest classification
I saw was For Official Use Only, and not releasable to the public :-)
That included flight, engine and radar software.

The government doesn't provide F-16 radars to just any school that asks
for them, and very few students are interested in radar unless they are going
to become government contractors, or government employees. So it's not
like these things are all over and kids are dinking with them. These things
cost millions, and are expensive to power-up and run for several hours, so
you spend hours on simulators before ever getting allowed to run your code
live out the antenna. It's very tedious and I have to say, very glad it was
over. I didn't want to be the one that blew-up the radar and had to fill out
all the reports to get replacement parts.

"Thomas J. Paladino Jr." wrote in message
...

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 02:19:03 GMT, Glenfiddich

wrote:

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:18:29 -0000, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:


"Glenfiddich" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 15:02:51 GMT, "C.D.Damron" wrote:

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote:
The F-16 is a very popular airplane. I'm just curious who has
copies
of
the source code to the plane and it's radar, etc.
Obviously the USAF does, but do the Israeli,
the Belgians, or anyone else?

For some boxes, we did not provide the source code.
This hasn't kept the Israeli's from uncompiling it
and selling the technology to other countries.

The USA is the only country to receive such code from Israel.
Check who owns F-16s - do you seriously imagine that Israel
would sell improved code to an enemy state?

Given that they sold Python AAM's and wanted to sell an
advanced AWACS style capability to China I wouldnt rule
it out.

The Python is an Israeli-developed missile, they have the right
to sell it to any market they're not locked out of.

The AWACS was offered openly, and cancelled at the US' request.
That's wrong?

Now, the subject was F-16 code - how many F-16s does China fly?

Same thing happened with the improved Patriot programming.
Israel had a vital interest in making it work right - and got
enough real-life experience to see what needed fixing

And some sources believe they then sold that know how to China

Some sources will believe anything...

If China got secret US technology, they most likely got it directly
from the US - didn't you follow the news about Chinese activities
inside the USA?
Misdirecting blame is a standard way to deflect attention.
That's been done before - remember how Israeli agent Pollard
was blamed for exposing US agents to the Russians?
And then we heard that Aldrich Ames, the American who wrote
the report blaming Pollard, was the traitor?

http://the-tech.mit.edu/V112/N13/china.13w.html
http://www.aviationnow.com/content/p...10430/aw34.htm

These two tentative reports are years old - and are still unconfirmed.
If there were much truth in them, they'd have been confirmed by now.

The Israelis will sell anything to anybody. They are not "allies" of the
US, they are a money sucking parasite.

And there it is. With all the underlying anti-semitism building up in this
thread, I was waiting for someone to just come right out and say something
flagrantly neo-Nazi like that.

Come on, the Isrealis (who are not "The Jews" - by no means all Isralei are
Jewsih , and I woudl hazard a guess that the majority of Jews are not
citizens of Israel) have a long track record of selling whatever they can to
somewhat questionable regimes - Argentina and Apartheid Soth Africa to name
but too. Mr Minyard exaggerates as usual but as usual (I grudgingly admit)
there is a kernel of truth there.

Its those crafty bloodsucking Jews! Zieg Heil! Don't you know they eat
babies too?

Who mentioned Jews? He was talking about Israel.

Never mind the fact that France and Germany were cheerfully selling Saddam
Hussein brand new Roland surface to air missiles, land mines, ammunition
and
cruise missiles only a couple of months before our invasion!

I think you might want to check yer facts there...

It's the damn
dirty Jews we should all be worried about!

Again, who mentioned Jews?

And while China isn't exactly our best friend out there, military
hostilities between us and them are nowhere near imminent... as they were
with Saddam.

Well, invading countries does tend to make hostilities "imminent" I
suppose..

Now I don't advocate Israel selling high-tech weapons to China,
but I really don't feel it's a huge Jew conspiracy either.

So why bring it up?

They know we're their friends. And since we're being honest lets face
facts here; China got
more sensitive defense technology from us under Clinton than they could
ever
hope to get from Israel.

Was Clinton shipping them state of the art missiles? I had no idea.

It's all just business.

One definition of "just business" could be "selling anything to anyone"

Now run along; your white sheet is probably getting
wrinkled and you have crosses to burn. Watch out for those Jews!

You're a strange one.

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 05:39:21 GMT, "Thomas J. Paladino Jr." wrote:


"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 02:19:03 GMT, Glenfiddich
wrote:

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:18:29 -0000, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:


"Glenfiddich" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 15:02:51 GMT, "C.D.Damron" wrote:

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote:
The F-16 is a very popular airplane. I'm just curious who has
copies
of
the source code to the plane and it's radar, etc.
Obviously the USAF does, but do the Israeli,
the Belgians, or anyone else?

For some boxes, we did not provide the source code.
This hasn't kept the Israeli's from uncompiling it
and selling the technology to other countries.

The USA is the only country to receive such code from Israel.
Check who owns F-16s - do you seriously imagine that Israel
would sell improved code to an enemy state?

Given that they sold Python AAM's and wanted to sell an
advanced AWACS style capability to China I wouldnt rule
it out.

The Python is an Israeli-developed missile, they have the right
to sell it to any market they're not locked out of.

The AWACS was offered openly, and cancelled at the US' request.
That's wrong?

Now, the subject was F-16 code - how many F-16s does China fly?

Same thing happened with the improved Patriot programming.
Israel had a vital interest in making it work right - and got
enough real-life experience to see what needed fixing

And some sources believe they then sold that know how to China

Some sources will believe anything...

If China got secret US technology, they most likely got it directly
from the US - didn't you follow the news about Chinese activities
inside the USA?
Misdirecting blame is a standard way to deflect attention.
That's been done before - remember how Israeli agent Pollard
was blamed for exposing US agents to the Russians?
And then we heard that Aldrich Ames, the American who wrote
the report blaming Pollard, was the traitor?

http://the-tech.mit.edu/V112/N13/china.13w.html
http://www.aviationnow.com/content/p...10430/aw34.htm

These two tentative reports are years old - and are still unconfirmed.
If there were much truth in them, they'd have been confirmed by now.

The Israelis will sell anything to anybody. They are not "allies" of the
US, they are a money sucking parasite.

And there it is. With all the underlying anti-semitism building up in this
thread, I was waiting for someone to just come right out and say something
flagrantly neo-Nazi like that.

So, anyone who disagrees with the Israeli Govt is an anti-semite nazi??
You really are sick.

Its those crafty bloodsucking Jews! Zieg Heil! Don't you know they eat
babies too?

Never mind the fact that France and Germany were cheerfully selling Saddam
Hussein brand new Roland surface to air missiles, land mines, ammunition and
cruise missiles only a couple of months before our invasion! It's the damn
dirty Jews we should all be worried about!

Once again, your silly rant has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Or that Russia sent military advisors and GPS jamming equipment to help
Saddam repel our invasion and kill our boys.....everyone knows the Jews are
the real problem!

And while China isn't exactly our best friend out there, military
hostilities between us and them are nowhere near imminent... as they were
with Saddam. Now I don't advocate Israel selling high-tech weapons to China,
but I really don't feel it's a huge Jew conspiracy either. They know we're
their friends. And since we're being honest lets face facts here; China got
more sensitive defense technology from us under Clinton than they could ever
hope to get from Israel. And you can bet that if trade restrictions were
relaxed with China tomorrow, Northrop, McDonnell Douglass and LockMart reps
would be on the first plane over there trying to sell them AWACS and F-16s
directly.

It's all just business. Now run along; your white sheet is probably getting
wrinkled and you have crosses to burn. Watch out for those Jews!

Thomas J. Paladino Jr.
New York City

You, sir, are a disgusting racist. Disagreement with the GOI does not make
one an anti-semite, but you cannot see that fact because of your
disturbing racism.

Al Minyard

"Gene Storey" wrote in message news:emWBb.6458$US3.497@okepread03...
What!! I thought that the radar was the most top-secret portion of the
plane, and that the radar algorithms were a military secret. They hand it
out to graduate students??

Could you have gotten access to the flight control software? Could
the Belgian government?

Yes, the Belgium depot at Gosselies was heavily involved with the F-16
MLU (Mid-Life Upgrade).

Yes, all software that was meant to be changed over time is available to
several universities in their engineering schools. The highest classification
I saw was For Official Use Only, and not releasable to the public :-)
That included flight, engine and radar software.


I'm still trying to understand.

Does this mean that they gave you some of the code, and some object files.
In other words, did they give you some *.c files, but keep a few
things secret in the *.o files.


The government doesn't provide F-16 radars to just any school that asks
for them, and very few students are interested in radar unless they are going
to become government contractors, or government employees. So it's not
like these things are all over and kids are dinking with them. These things
cost millions, and are expensive to power-up and run for several hours, so
you spend hours on simulators before ever getting allowed to run your code
live out the antenna. It's very tedious and I have to say, very glad it was
over. I didn't want to be the one that blew-up the radar and had to fill out
all the reports to get replacement parts.

You must have some interesting stories. I'd be happy to read any you
might want to share.

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote

Does this mean that they gave you some of the code, and some object files.
In other words, did they give you some *.c files, but keep a few
things secret in the *.o files.

It was all in Ada, and you compiled all of your software on a DEC Alpha, and
downloaded it into the firmware card, and plugged that back into the radar.
There's something called a Security Classification Guide. While any one or
two things might be unclassified, by tying them all together makes it classified
at some level. There hasn't been much new in radar algorithms in the last
20 years. Everyone knows a lot about DSP, tracking, etc :-) Every Mig
I know of has an F-16 detector in its RHAW, ha. Stuff like PRF, Frequency,
and algorithms actually used weren't published, which supposedly makes the
enemy have to work for it in their ESM gear. I'm sure the Soviets could
probably of told NATO more about the radar from just signal analysis, then
even Westinghouse engineers knew :-)