flaps again

On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 07:45:44 -0600, "Maxwell"
wrote:


"Kobra" wrote in message
...

I kind-of feel vindicated that another pilot had the same mild
distractions
in the pattern, was setting his flaps as always and never noticed at each
of
three changes that no flaps what-so-ever were being provided.

You shouldn't, it really just indicates both of you have a problem.
Transitioning from 0 to 30/40 degrees flaps changes the pitch and trim
handling on a 150, 152, 172, 177, 182 so much - if you can't sense the
difference, you really need to spend a LOT more time with the airplane.

I agree with Maxwell. Within very small ranges, power settings and
aircraft configuration will always be pretty much the same. If you
have signficantly different power settings than you are expecting and
usually use for the configuration you have selected, look for
something to be set wrong or not working - flaps, gear, whatever.

On Jan 1, 2:45 am, "Maxwell" wrote:
"Kobra" wrote in message

...



I kind-of feel vindicated that another pilot had the same mild
distractions
in the pattern, was setting his flaps as always and never noticed at each
of
three changes that no flaps what-so-ever were being provided.

You shouldn't, it really just indicates both of you have a problem.
Transitioning from 0 to 30/40 degrees flaps changes the pitch and trim
handling on a 150, 152, 172, 177, 182 so much - if you can't sense the
difference, you really need to spend a LOT more time with the airplane.

Too right! I can't believe he could not feel the difference in the
plane as flaps extend. You can also feel vibration and hear the motor
in all the SE Cessnas I've flown. Is this another simmer? If not I
agree he really needs some quality training.

Cheers

Hmmmm..............

In our Cessna 172, flap extension also involved very signigicant trim
changes/speed and power changes. The lack of flap extension one time
(bad switch) was unmistaken and immediately apparent..

What Model Cessna?

I as well wonder how this would not be noticed, but my experience is
limited to one model Cessna.

Our (now) Warrior has a big black lever, NO DOUBT when the flaps are
down!

Wondering... (?)

Dave



..On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 21:06:17 -0500, "Kobra" wrote:

Flyers,

First, as a reminder, some may recall that I had unwittingly landed one day
in Williamsburg, VA without the flaps. I didn't notice they had not
deployed until my next pre-flight when I found them INOP. They I remembered
out fast I came over the fence and controlling the airspeed was more
difficult then ever before. I took a lot of heat from other pilots that
basicly said, "How in the world could any pilot worth a darn EVER not
realize that their flaps didn't come out! THAT would NEVER happen to ME!!"

I thought I would relate a story that happened to my plane partner and I the
other day. My partner hadn't flown in a while and we went out to do some
maneuvers and some landings to get him current and proficient again.
Everything went fine until our last landing.

Throughout this last pattern I noticed that we were always fast on every
leg. I admonished him to slow down and get down. He was some what
distracted by a helicopter hovering just off the ground and off to the left
side of the final approach course. I notice that he had 30 degrees of flaps
in and he started to drift the IAS out of the white arc. I again sounded
off that his AS was way off and to fix it.

Then it hit me...how in the world could he have flaps 30 with 16 or 17
inches of MP at our decent rate and be out of the white arc. That is not
possible. I looked over my right shoulder and saw the reason...the flaps
were fully retracted.

He did not notice and was attempting to fix the problem by pulling the power
and trimming the nose up. (unwittingly setting himself up for a no flap
landing as I did in VA). We were on short final and I hesitated to say
anything as not to distract him at this critical time, but reflexively my
mouth just blurted out, "Dude...I have some really bad news for
you...you've got no flaps at all!" At first he wanted to go around, but the
AS wasn't too bad and I said, "No...just keep this attitude and come in
flat." That is what he did and we had no problems.

I kind-of feel vindicated that another pilot had the same mild distractions
in the pattern, was setting his flaps as always and never noticed at each of
three changes that no flaps what-so-ever were being provided. He would have
landed fast and long, braked hard and wondered why he had so much difficulty
slowing down. He would not have realized what happened until and unless he
did the next pre-flight and set the flaps to full for inspection.

This was a new motor bought from Cessna. Turns out that one of the brushes
was hanging up in it's housing and not making contact with the commutator.
He widened the housing and that was the end of that problem.

Kobra
C177RG

PS: and now Multi-engine, Multi-engine instrument, Multi-engine commercial
rated!! whoa whooh!! Regionals...here I come.

On Dec 31, 8:59 am, Dave wrote:
Hmmmm..............

In our Cessna 172, flap extension also involved very signigicant trim
changes/speed and power changes. The lack of flap extension one time
(bad switch) was unmistaken and immediately apparent..

What Model Cessna?

I as well wonder how this would not be noticed, but my experience is
limited to one model Cessna.

I've flown the 150, 172, 180, 182, 185 and 206 and all
except the 180 and 185 do the same thing. The stab is in the downwash
off the flaps and the nose will rise when flaps are applied. The
180/185 have the stab mounted lower and out of the downwash and will
need nose-up trim with flap, if I remember right; haven't flown one
for seven or eight years. I flew the 177 a long time ago but can't
rememer what it did.
There are some other high-wing airplanes that don't do this.
They'll put the nose down with flap, which is what would be expected
as the CP moves aft with flaps going down.
My old Auster had two trim tabs: One manually controlled,
the other connected to the flap system so that it kept the attitude
constant wherever the flaps were set. Worked well. Haven't seen it on
any other airplane. They were Zap flaps, too; the airplane would fly
very slowly with them down and could be glided very steeply without
gaining airspeed. To meet military specs, no doubt. Pictures:
http://www.beloblog.com/KGW_Blogs/weather/P6260159.JPG
http://www.forceaerienne.forces.gc.c...lpaper/aop.jpg

Our (now) Warrior has a big black lever, NO DOUBT when the flaps are
down!

Flaps for *real* pilots.You can spot one of those: big biceps
on the right arm :-)

Dan

snip

I as well wonder how this would not be noticed, but my experience is
limited to one model Cessna.

* * * * * *I've flown the 150, 172, 180, 182, 185 and 206 and all
except the 180 and 185 do the same thing. The stab is in the downwash
off the flaps and the nose will rise when flaps are applied. The
snip

It have been a few years since I flew a 177 and it wasn't an RG.
However as I recall the flaps on the 177 are much smaller than most of
the other Cessnas.
They are more simlar to the flaps on the Cherokee.

I don't recall how much pitch change they induced on the 177 but
if there was a Cessna that the flaps didn't change the pitch much it
probably would be the 177.
I am sure there are a few others like possibly the C-140, C-188, etc.

Brian
CFIG/ASEL

Kobra wrote:
Flyers,

First, as a reminder, some may recall that I had unwittingly landed one day
in Williamsburg, VA without the flaps. I didn't notice they had not
deployed until my next pre-flight when I found them INOP. They I remembered
out fast I came over the fence and controlling the airspeed was more
difficult then ever before. I took a lot of heat from other pilots that
basicly said, "How in the world could any pilot worth a darn EVER not
realize that their flaps didn't come out! THAT would NEVER happen to ME!!"

I thought I would relate a story that happened to my plane partner and I the
other day. My partner hadn't flown in a while and we went out to do some
maneuvers and some landings to get him current and proficient again.
Everything went fine until our last landing.

Throughout this last pattern I noticed that we were always fast on every
leg. I admonished him to slow down and get down. He was some what
distracted by a helicopter hovering just off the ground and off to the left
side of the final approach course. I notice that he had 30 degrees of flaps
in and he started to drift the IAS out of the white arc. I again sounded
off that his AS was way off and to fix it.

Then it hit me...how in the world could he have flaps 30 with 16 or 17
inches of MP at our decent rate and be out of the white arc. That is not
possible. I looked over my right shoulder and saw the reason...the flaps
were fully retracted.

He did not notice and was attempting to fix the problem by pulling the power
and trimming the nose up. (unwittingly setting himself up for a no flap
landing as I did in VA). We were on short final and I hesitated to say
anything as not to distract him at this critical time, but reflexively my
mouth just blurted out, "Dude...I have some really bad news for
you...you've got no flaps at all!" At first he wanted to go around, but the
AS wasn't too bad and I said, "No...just keep this attitude and come in
flat." That is what he did and we had no problems.

I kind-of feel vindicated that another pilot had the same mild distractions
in the pattern, was setting his flaps as always and never noticed at each of
three changes that no flaps what-so-ever were being provided. He would have
landed fast and long, braked hard and wondered why he had so much difficulty
slowing down. He would not have realized what happened until and unless he
did the next pre-flight and set the flaps to full for inspection.

This was a new motor bought from Cessna. Turns out that one of the brushes
was hanging up in it's housing and not making contact with the commutator.
He widened the housing and that was the end of that problem.

Kobra
C177RG

PS: and now Multi-engine, Multi-engine instrument, Multi-engine commercial
rated!! whoa whooh!! Regionals...here I come.



As my good ole' buddy Chris Patterakis (ex-Thunderbird lead and general
good guy) used to say, "We don't fly in a one cue world".
This simple statement should be a large sign stapled on the door of
every pilot's bedroom so they read it every day until it became a living
part of their flying mindset.
I honestly can't conceive of a situation in a light GA aircraft where a
pilot could attempt lowering the flaps and not know immediately if they
were in the equation. The cues available are just too many to ignore.
You have the obvious visual check, and if that isn't available, the
changes and/or lack of same in the aircraft's performance should become
immediately apparent to a "tuned in" pilot.

On the other hand, a flaps up landing should be part and parcel of every
pilot's training curriculum and should be a non event should the need
arise to make one.

The bottom line on this is that there should have been instant
recognition of the situation using any and all available cues and the
situation assessed and acted on by a deliberate action either to land
the airplane flaps up with all the expected behavior associated with
that decision, or, if not enough time to set up or enough romm to do
that, a go around should have been initiated and the problem
investigated out of the pattern.
Either way, this situation should have been handled in such a way that
at no time during the approach was the airplane flying the pilot and not
the other way around :-)


--
Dudley Henriques

OK, so I am missing something..

In large , more complex aircraft, I can see the difficulty landing
without flaps.

But in a 172 or a Warrior?

......with sufficient runway, and in strong winds, I sometimes prefer
no flaps.

My Warrior POH indicates flaps are to be used as needed, no flap
landings are not indicated as requiring an emergency procedure...

In training aircraft?

Dave



On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 18:32:23 -0500, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Kobra wrote:
Flyers,

First, as a reminder, some may recall that I had unwittinglI Have to ask now.
y landed one day
in Williamsburg, VA without the flaps. I didn't notice they had not
deployed until my next pre-flight when I found them INOP. They I remembered
out fast I came over the fence and controlling the airspeed was more
difficult then ever before. I took a lot of heat from other pilots that
basicly said, "How in the world could any pilot worth a darn EVER not
realize that their flaps didn't come out! THAT would NEVER happen to ME!!"

I thought I would relate a story that happened to my plane partner and I the
other day. My partner hadn't flown in a while and we went out to do some
maneuvers and some landings to get him current and proficient again.
Everything went fine until our last landing.

Throughout this last pattern I noticed that we were always fast on every
leg. I admonished him to slow down and get down. He was some what
distracted by a helicopter hovering just off the ground and off to the left
side of the final approach course. I notice that he had 30 degrees of flaps
in and he started to drift the IAS out of the white arc. I again sounded
off that his AS was way off and to fix it.

Then it hit me...how in the world could he have flaps 30 with 16 or 17
inches of MP at our decent rate and be out of the white arc. That is not
possible. I looked over my right shoulder and saw the reason...the flaps
were fully retracted.

He did not notice and was attempting to fix the problem by pulling the power
and trimming the nose up. (unwittingly setting himself up for a no flap
landing as I did in VA). We were on short final and I hesitated to say
anything as not to distract him at this critical time, but reflexively my
mouth just blurted out, "Dude...I have some really bad news for
you...you've got no flaps at all!" At first he wanted to go around, but the
AS wasn't too bad and I said, "No...just keep this attitude and come in
flat." That is what he did and we had no problems.

I kind-of feel vindicated that another pilot had the same mild distractions
in the pattern, was setting his flaps as always and never noticed at each of
three changes that no flaps what-so-ever were being provided. He would have
landed fast and long, braked hard and wondered why he had so much difficulty
slowing down. He would not have realized what happened until and unless he
did the next pre-flight and set the flaps to full for inspection.

This was a new motor bought from Cessna. Turns out that one of the brushes
was hanging up in it's housing and not making contact with the commutator.
He widened the housing and that was the end of that problem.

Kobra
C177RG

PS: and now Multi-engine, Multi-engine instrument, Multi-engine commercial
rated!! whoa whooh!! Regionals...here I come.



As my good ole' buddy Chris Patterakis (ex-Thunderbird lead and general
good guy) used to say, "We don't fly in a one cue world".
This simple statement should be a large sign stapled on the door of
every pilot's bedroom so they read it every day until it became a living
part of their flying mindset.
I honestly can't conceive of a situation in a light GA aircraft where a
pilot could attempt lowering the flaps and not know immediately if they
were in the equation. The cues available are just too many to ignore.
You have the obvious visual check, and if that isn't available, the
changes and/or lack of same in the aircraft's performance should become
immediately apparent to a "tuned in" pilot.

On the other hand, a flaps up landing should be part and parcel of every
pilot's training curriculum and should be a non event should the need
arise to make one.

The bottom line on this is that there should have been instant
recognition of the situation using any and all available cues and the
situation assessed and acted on by a deliberate action either to land
the airplane flaps up with all the expected behavior associated with
that decision, or, if not enough time to set up or enough romm to do
that, a go around should have been initiated and the problem
investigated out of the pattern.
Either way, this situation should have been handled in such a way that
at no time during the approach was the airplane flying the pilot and not
the other way around :-)

Dave wrote:
OK, so I am missing something..

In large , more complex aircraft, I can see the difficulty landing
without flaps.

But in a 172 or a Warrior?

.....with sufficient runway, and in strong winds, I sometimes prefer
no flaps.

My Warrior POH indicates flaps are to be used as needed, no flap
landings are not indicated as requiring an emergency procedure...

In training aircraft?

Dave



On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 18:32:23 -0500, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Kobra wrote:
Flyers,

First, as a reminder, some may recall that I had unwittinglI Have to ask now.
y landed one day
in Williamsburg, VA without the flaps. I didn't notice they had not
deployed until my next pre-flight when I found them INOP. They I remembered
out fast I came over the fence and controlling the airspeed was more
difficult then ever before. I took a lot of heat from other pilots that
basicly said, "How in the world could any pilot worth a darn EVER not
realize that their flaps didn't come out! THAT would NEVER happen to ME!!"

I thought I would relate a story that happened to my plane partner and I the
other day. My partner hadn't flown in a while and we went out to do some
maneuvers and some landings to get him current and proficient again.
Everything went fine until our last landing.

Throughout this last pattern I noticed that we were always fast on every
leg. I admonished him to slow down and get down. He was some what
distracted by a helicopter hovering just off the ground and off to the left
side of the final approach course. I notice that he had 30 degrees of flaps
in and he started to drift the IAS out of the white arc. I again sounded
off that his AS was way off and to fix it.

Then it hit me...how in the world could he have flaps 30 with 16 or 17
inches of MP at our decent rate and be out of the white arc. That is not
possible. I looked over my right shoulder and saw the reason...the flaps
were fully retracted.

He did not notice and was attempting to fix the problem by pulling the power
and trimming the nose up. (unwittingly setting himself up for a no flap
landing as I did in VA). We were on short final and I hesitated to say
anything as not to distract him at this critical time, but reflexively my
mouth just blurted out, "Dude...I have some really bad news for
you...you've got no flaps at all!" At first he wanted to go around, but the
AS wasn't too bad and I said, "No...just keep this attitude and come in
flat." That is what he did and we had no problems.

I kind-of feel vindicated that another pilot had the same mild distractions
in the pattern, was setting his flaps as always and never noticed at each of
three changes that no flaps what-so-ever were being provided. He would have
landed fast and long, braked hard and wondered why he had so much difficulty
slowing down. He would not have realized what happened until and unless he
did the next pre-flight and set the flaps to full for inspection.

This was a new motor bought from Cessna. Turns out that one of the brushes
was hanging up in it's housing and not making contact with the commutator.
He widened the housing and that was the end of that problem.

Kobra
C177RG

PS: and now Multi-engine, Multi-engine instrument, Multi-engine commercial
rated!! whoa whooh!! Regionals...here I come.


As my good ole' buddy Chris Patterakis (ex-Thunderbird lead and general
good guy) used to say, "We don't fly in a one cue world".
This simple statement should be a large sign stapled on the door of
every pilot's bedroom so they read it every day until it became a living
part of their flying mindset.
I honestly can't conceive of a situation in a light GA aircraft where a
pilot could attempt lowering the flaps and not know immediately if they
were in the equation. The cues available are just too many to ignore.
You have the obvious visual check, and if that isn't available, the
changes and/or lack of same in the aircraft's performance should become
immediately apparent to a "tuned in" pilot.

On the other hand, a flaps up landing should be part and parcel of every
pilot's training curriculum and should be a non event should the need
arise to make one.

The bottom line on this is that there should have been instant
recognition of the situation using any and all available cues and the
situation assessed and acted on by a deliberate action either to land
the airplane flaps up with all the expected behavior associated with
that decision, or, if not enough time to set up or enough romm to do
that, a go around should have been initiated and the problem
investigated out of the pattern.
Either way, this situation should have been handled in such a way that
at no time during the approach was the airplane flying the pilot and not
the other way around :-)

No flap landings should be handled by instructors as simply another
procedure to be learned. There's nothing earth shattering about a no
flap landing, BUT and this is a BIG BUT HERE......there are aspects of a
no flap landing that are very different from a landing using "flaps as
required", so all CFI's should demonstrate no flap landings and go over
the aspects of no flap landings with every student.
I don't treat this situation as an emergency; simply something the
student must be completely familiar with before solo.


--
Dudley Henriques

In article ,
Dudley Henriques wrote:

No flap landings should be handled by instructors as simply another
procedure to be learned. There's nothing earth shattering about a no
flap landing, BUT and this is a BIG BUT HERE......there are aspects of a
no flap landing that are very different from a landing using "flaps as
required", so all CFI's should demonstrate no flap landings and go over
the aspects of no flap landings with every student.
I don't treat this situation as an emergency; simply something the
student must be completely familiar with before solo.

The issue with no flaps landings is not that the landing itself is an
emergency, but that the pilot should recognize that the flaps didn't extend
and adjust his plan accordingly. And understand the performance
implications.

Roy Smith wrote:
In article ,
Dudley Henriques wrote:

No flap landings should be handled by instructors as simply another
procedure to be learned. There's nothing earth shattering about a no
flap landing, BUT and this is a BIG BUT HERE......there are aspects of a
no flap landing that are very different from a landing using "flaps as
required", so all CFI's should demonstrate no flap landings and go over
the aspects of no flap landings with every student.
I don't treat this situation as an emergency; simply something the
student must be completely familiar with before solo.

The issue with no flaps landings is not that the landing itself is an
emergency, but that the pilot should recognize that the flaps didn't extend
and adjust his plan accordingly. And understand the performance
implications.

Like many CFI's who came up during my period, (old people :-) I much
preferred to teach no flap landings to students as BOTH a possible
emergency AND an option that could be used by a good pilot who for a
viable and safe reason wanted to land long for a far end turnoff on an
exceptionally long runway for example.
Many of the airplanes we flew as trainers had no flaps; i.e. Cubs,
Colts, etc. You learned early on in these airplanes to fly the approach
properly and with no "devices" to help you control the landing speed.
These airplanes are still in use today and in many cases are priced low
enough that many students becoming aircraft owners for the first time
will end up purchasing an aircraft with no flaps. I personally know two
pilots who own a J3 and a Piper Colt; each have no flaps.

Flaps and their use are VERY aircraft specific. In some airplanes a POH
might define a no flap landing as an emergency. Others simply alter the
approach profile a bit. In the T38 Talon for example, (I use this as the
airplane is extremely high performance and landing cfg is critical for
the Talon) the procedure for a no flap landing is to add 15kts to the
normal landing speed...period! No big deal at all.

Landing a normal GA airplane with no flaps should not pose a good pilot
any problems at all, and training should reflect this.

The bottom line is that instructors should teach landings in a way that
defines every one of them as a unique experience dealing with a unique
and ever changing dynamic. No two landings that a pilot will make during
an entire career will ever be exactly the same. Each landing carries its
own individual fingerprint.
No flaps can be an emergency landing or it can simply be a pilot's
option. Either way, the pilot should be on top of it and have each
individual landing planned based on current conditions existing for any
given instant in time that pertain to THAT landing.


--
Dudley Henriques