This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene

Subject: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
From: Joe Osman
Date: 12/22/03 11:31 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

"Bjørnar Bolsøy" wrote:

(ArtKramr) wrote in
:
Subject: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
From: "James Linn"
Date: 12/22/03 7:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

I watched a documentary recently on the 1st Canadian Paras. They
had trained with the 101st in the US(and with the British as
well).

They were plugged into the north side of the line at Bastogne,
and one of the interviewed vets complained that they wanted to
stage a breakthrough to Bastogne as they were about 15 miles
north, but were told that Patton would have the honours. As
brave as that desire was to help their friends, it was possibly
much wiser to let an amoured division breakthrough than to push
a lightly armed para division in, one that didn't have proper
winter equipment, armour or sufficient arty(gee that sounds like
the Canadian armed forces of today).

James Linn



Sound like if the 1st Paras had broken through they would just
be trapped in Bastogne with the 101st. The better part of valor.
(sigh)

Regards,

What kind of temperature were those guys facing, and what type
of winter clothing did they have?

Regards...


+
The winter of 1944 was the worst in 50 years in Europe.

Joe


Exactly. Iwas never so cold in my life and shiver when I just think of it.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
From: Joe Osman
Date: 12/22/03 11:31 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

"Bjørnar Bolsøy" wrote:

(ArtKramr) wrote in
:
Subject: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
From: "James Linn"
Date: 12/22/03 7:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

I watched a documentary recently on the 1st Canadian Paras. They
had trained with the 101st in the US(and with the British as
well).

They were plugged into the north side of the line at Bastogne,
and one of the interviewed vets complained that they wanted to
stage a breakthrough to Bastogne as they were about 15 miles
north, but were told that Patton would have the honours. As
brave as that desire was to help their friends, it was possibly
much wiser to let an amoured division breakthrough than to push
a lightly armed para division in, one that didn't have proper
winter equipment, armour or sufficient arty(gee that sounds like
the Canadian armed forces of today).

James Linn



Sound like if the 1st Paras had broken through they would just
be trapped in Bastogne with the 101st. The better part of valor.
(sigh)

Regards,

What kind of temperature were those guys facing, and what type
of winter clothing did they have?

Regards...


+
The winter of 1944 was the worst in 50 years in Europe.

Joe


Exactly. Iwas never so cold in my life and shiver when I just think of
it.

The 101st needed supplies, to do more than attrit. It was time to close the
door.

Subject: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
From: "Tarver Engineering"
Date: 12/22/03 1:13 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
From: Joe Osman
Date: 12/22/03 11:31 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

"Bjørnar Bolsøy" wrote:

(ArtKramr) wrote in
:
Subject: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
From: "James Linn"
Date: 12/22/03 7:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

I watched a documentary recently on the 1st Canadian Paras. They
had trained with the 101st in the US(and with the British as
well).

They were plugged into the north side of the line at Bastogne,
and one of the interviewed vets complained that they wanted to
stage a breakthrough to Bastogne as they were about 15 miles
north, but were told that Patton would have the honours. As
brave as that desire was to help their friends, it was possibly
much wiser to let an amoured division breakthrough than to push
a lightly armed para division in, one that didn't have proper
winter equipment, armour or sufficient arty(gee that sounds like
the Canadian armed forces of today).

James Linn



Sound like if the 1st Paras had broken through they would just
be trapped in Bastogne with the 101st. The better part of valor.
(sigh)

Regards,

What kind of temperature were those guys facing, and what type
of winter clothing did they have?

Regards...


+
The winter of 1944 was the worst in 50 years in Europe.

Joe


Exactly. Iwas never so cold in my life and shiver when I just think of
it.

The 101st needed supplies, to do more than attrit. It was time to close the
door.



Tomorrow

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
From: "Tarver Engineering"
Date: 12/22/03 9:07 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
From: "James Linn"
Date: 12/22/03 7:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
The 101st was almost out of food and 30 cal. ammo for their
Garands.
Many
froze
to death in their foxholes overnight. It was still snowing. But
they
never
allowed the Germans to take the critical Batogne crossroads. In
the
meantime at
our field we had all our 6x6 with snowplows keeping our runway
clear,
Word
was we would be able to fly tomorrow, the 23rd. We just kept
looking
at
the sky
and thinking of the Battered *******s of Bastogne. We were so
close
we
could
almost touch them, but there was nothing we could do until the sky
cleared. We
all hoped for a better tomorrow. Iron men in harms way.

I watched a documentary recently on the 1st Canadian Paras. They had
trained
with the 101st in the US(and with the British as well).

They were plugged into the north side of the line at Bastogne, and
one
of
the interviewed vets complained that they wanted to stage a
breakthrough
to
Bastogne as they were about 15 miles north, but were told that
Patton
would
have the honours. As brave as that desire was to help their friends,
it
was
possibly much wiser to let an amoured division breakthrough than to
push
a
lightly armed para division in, one that didn't have proper winter
equipment, armour or sufficient arty(gee that sounds like the
Canadian
armed
forces of today).

Sound like if the 1st Paras had broken through they would just be
trapped
in
Bastogne with the 101st. The better part of valor. (sigh)

It was the Germans who were trapped at Bastogne.

A member of the 101st was quoted as saying, ": Th e Germans have us
surrounded.
Poor *******s.

My father claims the heaviest fighting he was involved with was the ten
days
after the the 101st was supposedly relieved. The 82nd was there so the
Germans could surrender, as FDR had issued a change of ROE to the 101st;
he
was not pleased with the Germans murdering prisoners.

Never happened that way. You refer to the Malmedy tragedy? It was a
small breakout attempt by 2 prisoners that turned into a few shots that
became a panic breakout that cost about 18 lives. It eventualy became a
propaganda lie that it seems to me is passionatly cherished perhaps because
it serves a purpose. An almost completely fabricated version of it is
endlessly and somewhat disgracefullty repeated without footnote in the Movie
"The battle for the Bulge". It Seems to have been an excuse for justifying
the murdering of the excedingly young conscipt Germans trying to surrender
and particularly Waffen SS. What little "evidence" that exists was
discredited as it came via the beating to a pulp of 18 German prisoners
testicles after the war.

Having personaly spoken to Austrian Army POWs who were held in open pens in
the snow for weeks and dieing from exposure and had to suffer several
murders by pot shots a night I know that elements of the US military can be
very savage. To be fair it seems to have been mainly Polish American units
that did this.



Another version is this:



The "Malmedy Massacre" is argued by others to be a hoax invented by wartime
sensation-mongers. During the Battle of the Bulge, a unit of the 1st Panzer
Division killed over 80 GIs during a fire fight. The American dead were laid
out in rows in the snow, but the Germans were forced to withdraw from
Malmedy before the dead soldiers were buried. Allied propagandists blew this
event up into a major atrocity story, claiming that the Americans had been
taken prisoner and then lined up and shot. Several Germans were tried after
the war for their participation in this war crime.

Either way, Malmedy was not characteristic of the Germans in the west.

"The Enlightenment" wrote in message
...

snip
The "Malmedy Massacre" is argued by others to be a hoax invented by
wartime
sensation-mongers. During the Battle of the Bulge, a unit of the 1st
Panzer
Division killed over 80 GIs during a fire fight. The American dead were
laid
out in rows in the snow, but the Germans were forced to withdraw from
Malmedy before the dead soldiers were buried. Allied propagandists blew
this
event up into a major atrocity story, claiming that the Americans had been
taken prisoner and then lined up and shot. Several Germans were tried
after
the war for their participation in this war crime.

Found guilty, then?

A rather poor decision to strand 2 SS Panzer divisions on the wrong side of
enemy lines out of fuel, especially when having murdered Americans on the
way West.

From: "The Enlightenment"

Never happened that way. You refer to the Malmedy tragedy? It was a
small breakout attempt by 2 prisoners that turned into a few shots that
became a panic breakout that cost about 18 lives. It eventualy became a
propaganda lie that it seems to me is passionatly cherished perhaps because
it serves a purpose. An almost completely fabricated version of it is
endlessly and somewhat disgracefullty repeated without footnote in the Movie
"The battle for the Bulge". It Seems to have been an excuse for justifying
the murdering of the excedingly young conscipt Germans trying to surrender
and particularly Waffen SS. What little "evidence" that exists was
discredited as it came via the beating to a pulp of 18 German prisoners
testicles after the war.

Having personaly spoken to Austrian Army POWs who were held in open pens in
the snow for weeks and dieing from exposure and had to suffer several
murders by pot shots a night I know that elements of the US military can be
very savage. To be fair it seems to have been mainly Polish American units
that did this.


Another version is this:


The "Malmedy Massacre" is argued by others to be a hoax invented by wartime
sensation-mongers. During the Battle of the Bulge, a unit of the 1st Panzer
Division killed over 80 GIs during a fire fight. The American dead were laid
out in rows in the snow, but the Germans were forced to withdraw from
Malmedy before the dead soldiers were buried. Allied propagandists blew this
event up into a major atrocity story, claiming that the Americans had been
taken prisoner and then lined up and shot. Several Germans were tried after
the war for their participation in this war crime.


I will wait patiently while you provide verifiable sources for either of those
fantasies.

The photographs I have seen show a lot more than 18 dead.

Either way, Malmedy was not characteristic of the Germans in the west.


And Oradeur wasn't either, I suppose? That was a small town in France where
your beloved SS shot all the men they could find and locked all the women and
children they could find in the church, then setting fire to it. I guess
burning women and children to death wasn't their way in the west either.

Dan, U. S. Air force, retired

Subject: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
From: (B2431)
Date: 12/22/03 8:43 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

From: "The Enlightenment"

Never happened that way. You refer to the Malmedy tragedy? It was a
small breakout attempt by 2 prisoners that turned into a few shots that
became a panic breakout that cost about 18 lives. It eventualy became a
propaganda lie that it seems to me is passionatly cherished perhaps because
it serves a purpose. An almost completely fabricated version of it is
endlessly and somewhat disgracefullty repeated without footnote in the Movie
"The battle for the Bulge". It Seems to have been an excuse for justifying
the murdering of the excedingly young conscipt Germans trying to surrender
and particularly Waffen SS. What little "evidence" that exists was
discredited as it came via the beating to a pulp of 18 German prisoners
testicles after the war.

Having personaly spoken to Austrian Army POWs who were held in open pens in
the snow for weeks and dieing from exposure and had to suffer several
murders by pot shots a night I know that elements of the US military can be
very savage. To be fair it seems to have been mainly Polish American units
that did this.


Another version is this:


The "Malmedy Massacre" is argued by others to be a hoax invented by wartime
sensation-mongers. During the Battle of the Bulge, a unit of the 1st Panzer
Division killed over 80 GIs during a fire fight. The American dead were laid
out in rows in the snow, but the Germans were forced to withdraw from
Malmedy before the dead soldiers were buried. Allied propagandists blew this
event up into a major atrocity story, claiming that the Americans had been
taken prisoner and then lined up and shot. Several Germans were tried after
the war for their participation in this war crime.


I will wait patiently while you provide verifiable sources for either of
those
fantasies.

The photographs I have seen show a lot more than 18 dead.

Either way, Malmedy was not characteristic of the Germans in the west.


And Oradeur wasn't either, I suppose? That was a small town in France where
your beloved SS shot all the men they could find and locked all the women and
children they could find in the church, then setting fire to it. I guess
burning women and children to death wasn't their way in the west either.

Dan, U. S. Air force, retired


No amount of revisionism will explain away the Malmedy Massacre. It will live
in the history of WW II forever.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"The Enlightenment" wrote in message
...



Having personaly spoken to Austrian Army POWs who were held in open pens
in
the snow for weeks and dieing from exposure and had to suffer several
murders by pot shots a night I know that elements of the US military can
be
very savage. To be fair it seems to have been mainly Polish American
units
that did this.



So you have spoken to Austrian POW's who died from exposure
and were them murdered several times by being shot at night

An interesting claim


Another version is this:



The "Malmedy Massacre" is argued by others to be a hoax invented by
wartime
sensation-mongers. During the Battle of the Bulge, a unit of the 1st
Panzer
Division killed over 80 GIs during a fire fight. The American dead were
laid
out in rows in the snow, but the Germans were forced to withdraw from
Malmedy before the dead soldiers were buried. Allied propagandists blew
this
event up into a major atrocity story, claiming that the Americans had been
taken prisoner and then lined up and shot. Several Germans were tried
after
the war for their participation in this war crime.



There was no fire fight, the soldiers involved werent front line
infantry they were members of a fieeld artillery observation
battallion being transported by truck when they were surprised
by 1st SS Panzer . What happened next is simply that they adopted
their usual method of dealing with POW's as developed on the
eastern front and herded them into a field and shot them

Either way, Malmedy was not characteristic of the Germans in the west.


No thats true, it was however characteristic of the manner 1st SS Panzer
behaved and proved to be a great mistake. Word got around both in
the US army and XXX corps that you couldnt surrender to these people.

Keith

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"The Enlightenment" wrote in message
...



Having personaly spoken to Austrian Army POWs who were held in open pens
in
the snow for weeks and dieing from exposure and had to suffer several
murders by pot shots a night I know that elements of the US military can
be
very savage. To be fair it seems to have been mainly Polish American
units
that did this.



So you have spoken to Austrian POW's who died from exposure
and were them murdered several times by being shot at night

An interesting claim



Sarcasm does not become you.

Just before the end of the second world war and After the war millions
of Wehrmacht etc prisoners were held by the allies. I have spoken to
a pair of these prisoners, in this case from Austria. Both men are
now deceased, having died last 2 years in Australia.

These men were forced to endure weeks in open snow with minimal food.
Many of their collegues died of hunger and exposure.

One of the men descrbed to me how he thought he died and was having
some kind of near death experience when he was brought back by his
friends slapping him around with snow.

For about 2 weeks the GIs guards would shoot randomly into the masses
of prisoners and thereby kill several of them.

At this point the Gurads must have felt completely impune to any sort
of punishment.

The war crimes, in the sense of specific and gross viloations of the
Geneva convention, of the allies have to my recollection never been
spoken of. There is not much to be gained.



Another version is this:



The "Malmedy Massacre" is argued by others to be a hoax invented by
wartime
sensation-mongers. During the Battle of the Bulge, a unit of the 1st
Panzer
Division killed over 80 GIs during a fire fight. The American dead were
laid
out in rows in the snow, but the Germans were forced to withdraw from
Malmedy before the dead soldiers were buried. Allied propagandists blew
this
event up into a major atrocity story, claiming that the Americans had been
taken prisoner and then lined up and shot. Several Germans were tried
after
the war for their participation in this war crime.



There was no fire fight, the soldiers involved werent front line
infantry they were members of a fieeld artillery observation
battallion being transported by truck when they were surprised
by 1st SS Panzer . What happened next is simply that they adopted
their usual method of dealing with POW's as developed on the
eastern front and herded them into a field and shot them

Either way, Malmedy was not characteristic of the Germans in the west.


No thats true, it was however characteristic of the manner 1st SS Panzer
behaved and proved to be a great mistake. Word got around both in
the US army and XXX corps that you couldnt surrender to these people.

Keith

Word might have got around but it was as I understand it a false
rumour. It turns out to be incorrect. As I recall from an british
military history magazine I used to read as a child called "War
Montly" the issue that dealt with the battle of the bulge this was
dismissed however the Americans on the basis of the rumour did not
accept German prisoners.

There is now a huge body of evidence that shows that a deliberate
massacre was highly improbable.

(B2431) wrote in message ...
From: "The Enlightenment"

Never happened that way. You refer to the Malmedy tragedy? It was a
small breakout attempt by 2 prisoners that turned into a few shots that
became a panic breakout that cost about 18 lives. It eventualy became a
propaganda lie that it seems to me is passionatly cherished perhaps because
it serves a purpose. An almost completely fabricated version of it is
endlessly and somewhat disgracefullty repeated without footnote in the Movie
"The battle for the Bulge". It Seems to have been an excuse for justifying
the murdering of the excedingly young conscipt Germans trying to surrender
and particularly Waffen SS. What little "evidence" that exists was
discredited as it came via the beating to a pulp of 18 German prisoners
testicles after the war.

Having personaly spoken to Austrian Army POWs who were held in open pens in
the snow for weeks and dieing from exposure and had to suffer several
murders by pot shots a night I know that elements of the US military can be
very savage. To be fair it seems to have been mainly Polish American units
that did this.


Another version is this:


The "Malmedy Massacre" is argued by others to be a hoax invented by wartime
sensation-mongers. During the Battle of the Bulge, a unit of the 1st Panzer
Division killed over 80 GIs during a fire fight. The American dead were laid
out in rows in the snow, but the Germans were forced to withdraw from
Malmedy before the dead soldiers were buried. Allied propagandists blew this
event up into a major atrocity story, claiming that the Americans had been
taken prisoner and then lined up and shot. Several Germans were tried after
the war for their participation in this war crime.


I will wait patiently while you provide verifiable sources for either of those
fantasies.

I am on holidays at the momment and not anywhere near my materials.
However if you try Karl Poppers method of testing the orthodoxy by
falsifying it you can find lots of very strong arguments against a
deliberate massacre on the web yourself. They were so strong that the
trial had to be abandoned.



The photographs I have seen show a lot more than 18 dead.

Either way, Malmedy was not characteristic of the Germans in the west.


And Oradeur wasn't either, I suppose?

No that's right. There is a huge amount of inconsistancy in the case
against the Germans. You can find quite a lot of this on the internet
and the case was eventualy dropped. A likely explanation was a
Marquis munitions store under the church blew up.




That was a small town in France where
your beloved SS shot all the men they could find and locked all the women and
children they could find in the church, then setting fire to it. I guess
burning women and children to death wasn't their way in the west either.

All very terrible but it isn't true: not in that form anyway.

The truth is hard to accept for all sides sometimes. Humans by nature
use lies and exaggeration to villify others and thus to generate
cohesive action. This is so inportant we happily decieve even
ourselves by not inquiring too deeply and readily going along with
convenient "atrocities". The cohesive actiona is the objective and
not the truth so dissidents who try to expose the truth are not always
liked: they can damage the myths that unify us.

Neverthelss living a history that is not a truth is excedingly
dangerous.




Dan, U. S. Air force, retired