How long until current 'stealth' techniques are compromised?

In message , robert
arndt writes
(Denyav) wrote in message
...
It seems alot of importance is put into stealth for aircraft these days,
just wondering who is working on a countering radar system for it?

Germany has its own version of the '90s Czech anti-stealth radar
(which they purchased)as well as EADs developing an anti-stealth
missile that uses multiple seekers to hunt stealth aircraft. One of
the seekers is a plume detector which goes back to WW2 and the
Feuerball weapon (aka Foo Fighter).

Would you mind expanding on your comments on 'Feuerball' and 'Foo
Fighters', Robert?

Mike

"M. J. Powell" wrote in message ...
In message , robert
arndt writes
(Denyav) wrote in message
...
It seems alot of importance is put into stealth for aircraft these days,
just wondering who is working on a countering radar system for it?

Germany has its own version of the '90s Czech anti-stealth radar
(which they purchased)as well as EADs developing an anti-stealth
missile that uses multiple seekers to hunt stealth aircraft. One of
the seekers is a plume detector which goes back to WW2 and the
Feuerball weapon (aka Foo Fighter).

Would you mind expanding on your comments on 'Feuerball' and 'Foo
Fighters', Robert?

Mike


Sure, but as soon as I do a whole bunch of anti-German RAM regulars
are going to try to discredit what I say.
Anyway, it is believed by some people that the mysterious burning
balls of fire nicknamed "Foo Fighters" by US pilots that followed
their aircraft were either:

a) unknown aerial phenomenon
b) alien/UFO craft
c) German secret weapon

Most RAM regulars will just put this subject in the A category and
file it under unknown.
However, what these people fail to do is tell you that the Foo Fighter
sightings were heavily documented by the 415th NFS, caught on film,
and reported as a German secret weapon in 3 world newspapers in Dec
'44/Jan '45.
They only appeared over GERMAN HELD TERRITORY in the period from 11/44
to 4/45 and they came from THE GROUND, not the air which discredits
the UFO fanatics.
After Germany surrendered the ETO sightings stopped... only to resume
briefly in 8/45 over Japan- Germany's ally. It is now known that
secret U-boat technology transfers were going on and at the end the
Germans gave the Japanese all their most secret stuff which included:
jet and rocket engines, designs for jet and rocket aircraft, guided
missiles, proximity fuses, and uranium for their atomic bomb project.
It is logical that among the technology transferred was the Feuerball
(Fireball) weapon.
The Feuerball was an SS project and can be accurately described as a
flattened disc powered by an advanced engine that was used as a
psychological weapon against the bomber aircraft. At Messerschmitt's
Oberammergau facility an electrical field device with a range of a few
hundred feet was built. It is believed that that device was
incorporated into the Feuerball. When the weapon, launched off a
modified Enzian launcher, got into the air it used an advanced plume
sensor to home in on the bomber aircraft's engines. Then when it
closed to a few hundred feet sent out a damaging electrical field that
caused the bomber engines to malfunction/stop.
Those who are critical of this description fail to tell others that
the bombers that did come into CLOSE contact with the Feuerball became
DISABLED. The field effect is DOCUMENTED by the 415th NFS, 9th AF, and
others.
Quite often the gunners onboard fired at the strange burning objects
but they sped away at high speed (triggered by a trip mechanism under
the Feuerball's armor plate). The information here is partly from the
415th NFS documentation, newspaper reports, and Renato Vesco's books
on the subject.
The problem with identifying this weapon is that it is an SS project
and involves disc technology that is still kept classified. The USAAF
heaviliy documented the "Foo Fighters" by never offered any clear
explanation for them.
The origin of this weapon is also believed to have been initiated by
the Italian scientist Belluzzo which was working on the big SS disc
aircraft. During the war Belluzzo came up with the idea of an Italian
jet-powered round bomb called a "Turboproietta". When he was placed
under SS control and worked on the Schriever disc enlargement along
with Miethe and Habermohl the Feuerball project also came to life.
The burning halo effect of these objects has never been precisely
explained. One theory is that they match the Turboproietta which looks
like a round jet wheel with four exhausts. Trouble is no known German
jet engine could fit the dimensions of the Feuerball, let alone four.
Another theory is that the Feuerball was an aerial flakmine with eight
rotors, four of which held Pabst ramjets which produced the fire halo
in flight sort of like what the Fw Triebflugel would have looked like
in combat. Only problem with that theory is that there never were any
descriptions of rotors on these objects nor engines. The entire body
was engulfed in flame. Furthermore a flakmine was meant to carry an
amatol warhead and explode in the bomber stream. No Feuerball
exploded- ever.
So, we are left with Vesco's description which matches what was
encountered in flight. The electrical field weapon was captured at
Oberammergau along with the Me P.1101... but no Feuerball. These were
constructed by the FFO of Wiener Neustadt and launched from forest
airstrips where the Messerschmitt Enzian was tested, hence the use of
the modified launcher.
Anyway, I hope this information is not too confusing. All SS projects
concerning disc craft of the E-4 Unit are still highly classified. In
past threads I have documented the sight dates, location, etc as well
as provided the newpapers reported and dates and reference sources.

Rob

p.s. the fact that both German and Japanese pilots saw the craft to
and didn't know what they were is irrelevent. Unless they had a need
to know they wouldn't just like one of our F-16 pilots spotting a
black project aircraft in the air wouldn't be able to identify it
either. Please use common sense in evaluating the above. No aerial
phenomenon targets US bombers at random and alien UFOs don't come from
the ground in German-held territory. The weapon was reported as a
German one and from all accounts is.

In message , robert
arndt writes
"M. J. Powell" wrote in message
...

Snip

Feuerball weapon (aka Foo Fighter).

Would you mind expanding on your comments on 'Feuerball' and 'Foo
Fighters', Robert?

Mike


Sure, but as soon as I do a whole bunch of anti-German RAM regulars
are going to try to discredit what I say.
Anyway, it is believed by some people that the mysterious burning
balls of fire nicknamed "Foo Fighters" by US pilots that followed
their aircraft were either:

a) unknown aerial phenomenon
b) alien/UFO craft
c) German secret weapon

Big snip

Thank very much, Robert. It expands what little I have read about it.

The bit about veering away from gunfire seems a little suspect. It would
be hard to accomplish today.

But they were never used at night against the RAF? The 'Blue Master
Searchlight' was another rumour.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

or the FSU with them. The strange thing is that our "friends" are
putting more money into anti-stealth than our "enemies"...

Rob

A small but interesting note,German post WWII counter LO work started short
time after Harold Macmillan transferred British and seized German stealth
technology to US.

Keep in mind that radar transmitters can be detected much farther out
than they themselves can detect a target. Iraqis found that out.
Walt BJ

Keep in mind that radar transmitters can be detected much farther out
than they themselves can detect a target. Iraqis found that out.

Yes,Iraqis found that out,probably
Iranians,Syrians,Somalians,Zambians,Micronesians and all Backwardistanians
will find out the same thing.

"muskau" wrote in message . au...
And if these newer aircraft with their current 'stealth' ability become
compromised, I assume importance would go to who sees who first and how good
long range missile technology has become? If that happens, then which recent
aircraft has the advantage?

Since the Air Force has never put their stealth aircraft into harm's
way without jamming I would think they agree that stealth alone has
never been 100 percent effective.

So they're 100 percent dependent on the Marines.

Which is why Boing just got the contract to develop the Growler.

-HJC

"Henry J. Cobb" wrote in message
om...
"muskau" wrote in message
. au...
And if these newer aircraft with their current 'stealth' ability become
compromised, I assume importance would go to who sees who first and how
good
long range missile technology has become? If that happens, then which
recent
aircraft has the advantage?

Since the Air Force has never put their stealth aircraft into harm's
way without jamming I would think they agree that stealth alone has
never been 100 percent effective.

Never? Not sure about that--ISTR that some of the B-2 missions have been
conducted without jamming support.


So they're 100 percent dependent on the Marines.

Uhmmm...only so far. We still have jamming pods for tactical aircraft...and
remember that the USAF contributes crewmen to those EA-6 units (they are the
closest thing to joint units you can find at the tactical level, with the
exception of maybe the E-8 JSTARS crews). And there are other aspects to ECM
as well; i.e., jamming the enemy communications is still primarily a USAF
role, IIRC.

Brooks


Which is why Boing just got the contract to develop the Growler.

-HJC

"Henry J. Cobb" wrote in message
om...

Since the Air Force has never put their stealth aircraft into harm's
way without jamming I would think they agree that stealth alone has
never been 100 percent effective.


The USAF has put stealth aircraft in harm's way without jamming. Jamming
would be counterproductive, as it would indicate an attack is imminent.

he USAF has put stealth aircraft in harm's way without jamming. Jamming
would be counterproductive, as it would indicate an attack is imminent.

Really? During Balkan conflict no US aircraft,stealth or not,flew without
Jammer support.
Two f117 were hit ,one lost,the other safely returned,both because of jammer
failures.

The originator of now famous saying "Jammers are like American Express never
leave home without them" is a f117 "driver".period.