Stalls??

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 13:22:19 -0800 (PST), Robert M. Gary wrote:

Most of the other CFIs
only go to the first nose drop, not a full stall and when teaching at
the Mooney Pilot Prof. courses you are prohibited from doing full
stalls with students. There are a lot of 10,000+ hour Mooney
instructors that say you simply shouldn't be doing full stalls in
these types of planes.

-Robert, CFII

Insurance have a play in this?
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
Why is it so many pilots are afraid of stalls? I see it over an over
when doing flight reviews and checks. Why are pilots so afraid of
flying in the low end of the speed envelope? Isn't that where the
nasty things can happen? Isn't that where a pilot should be
comfortable and competent?
What do you think?
Its a loaded? question and comes from a 24,000+ hour pilot and active
instructor. I'd really like to see some active discussion on this
subject. I'm tired of seeing aircraft damaged by sloppy flying, and
even more tired of seeing people injured by same.
Got any comments?
Ol S&B


The reason for the fear is probably because it was taught as the final
thing that can happen at low end of the envelope. This was not always
the case because people used to be trained that after the stall came the
spin and how to recover from that. Of course everyone knows that the
spin comes after the stall but it is all theory and faith. Sort of like
the afterlife.

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrote in message ...
Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
Why is it so many pilots are afraid of stalls? I see it over an over
when doing flight reviews and checks. Why are pilots so afraid of
flying in the low end of the speed envelope? Isn't that where the
nasty things can happen? Isn't that where a pilot should be
comfortable and competent?
What do you think?
Its a loaded? question and comes from a 24,000+ hour pilot and active
instructor. I'd really like to see some active discussion on this
subject. I'm tired of seeing aircraft damaged by sloppy flying, and
even more tired of seeing people injured by same.
Got any comments?
Ol S&B


The reason for the fear is probably because it was taught as the final thing that can happen at low end of the
envelope. This was not always the case because people used to be trained that after the stall came the spin and how to
recover from that. Of course everyone knows that the spin comes after the stall but it is all theory and faith. Sort
of like the afterlife.



Every flight in a light GA single should end in a full stall...right as the wheels roll on to the runway...Unless folks
know how to handle the plane in a stall, they will not learn to land correctly (I know this will start the flames!)

Every flight in a light GA single should end in a full stall...right as the wheels roll on to the runway...Unless folks
know how to handle the plane in a stall, they will not learn to land correctly (I know this will start the flames!)-

That's a sweet ending, though -- flames or not -- especially when the
stall horn blows and the wheels just start turning.

Yeah baby!

Recently, posted:

Every flight in a light GA single should end in a full stall...right
as the wheels roll on to the runway...Unless folks know how to
handle the plane in a stall, they will not learn to land correctly
(I know this will start the flames!)-

That's a sweet ending, though -- flames or not -- especially when the
stall horn blows and the wheels just start turning.

Yeah baby!

Curious... in the Cessnas and Pipers that I fly the stall horn blows at
least 5 kts before the stall. So, when the stall horn is blowing and the
wheels touch down, the plane is still flying.

Neil

On Feb 14, 7:49 am, "Neil Gould" wrote:
Recently, posted:

Every flight in a light GA single should end in a full stall...right
as the wheels roll on to the runway...Unless folks know how to
handle the plane in a stall, they will not learn to land correctly
(I know this will start the flames!)-

That's a sweet ending, though -- flames or not -- especially when the
stall horn blows and the wheels just start turning.

Yeah baby!

Curious... in the Cessnas and Pipers that I fly the stall horn blows at
least 5 kts before the stall. So, when the stall horn is blowing and the
wheels touch down, the plane is still flying.

Neil

Too many people overlook that. Even the POH will tell
you that the horn blows at 5 to 10 kts before the stall.
It's difficult to get a "full stall" in the landing in most
lightplanes without banging the tail on the runway; the fuselage
geometry won't allow it. Airplanes like the Zenair 701/801 have been
designed to fix that. And with the nose high at touchdown, the AOA is
lower than with the nose at that attitude approaching a power-off
stall in the air, since the airplane is likely already sinking
somewhat at altitude, and its flightpath increases the AOA at that
deck angle.
I get the horn blaring at ten feet BEFORE touchdown. Now
we're at a reasonable speed. No float in this situation.

It appears that instructors are increasingly afraid of the
airplanes they teach in. Pretty soon they'll be afraid to teach 30°
banked turns at cruise speed. I think it's a result of the overall
dumbing-down of society, where we are told WHAT to think, not HOW to
think. The media tells us which political leaders to vote for. They
tell us what to think (and what to believe) about various hot-potato
issues. The problem with that, besides making us lazy thinkers, is
that they are trying to redesign society along their own agendas.
Everyone knows that the media is infiltrated by a wide assortment of
social engineers.
The flight instructors just parrot stuff from the books and
from their instructors, with some urban legends thrown in. They don't
KNOW from experience; they just REPEAT something they were told. So
they end up scared of stalls and spins and slow flight and little
puffy clouds and five-knot crosswinds.

Dan

On Feb 15, 3:49*am, "Neil Gould" wrote:
Recently, posted:

Every flight in a light GA single should end in a full stall...right
as the wheels roll on to the runway...Unless folks know how to
handle the plane in a stall, they will not learn to land correctly
(I know this will start the flames!)-

That's a sweet ending, though -- flames or not -- especially when the
stall horn blows and the wheels just start turning.

Yeah baby!

Curious... in the Cessnas and Pipers that I fly the stall horn blows at
least 5 kts before the stall. So, when the stall horn is blowing and the
wheels touch down, the plane is still flying.


True, and that's usually just the first warning tone. I've said it
before but you can't get second tone in a 172 with wheels on the
ground without the tail touching... but we've thrashed this out
before. The problem, as I see it, is that aiming to land in a stalled
condition everything had better be perfect as you have no reserves.
You can't lift a wing if your x-wind control is a bit off or pull
back if a wind shadow hits -never mind the round out being close to
stall with crossed controls in a xwind ...

I'l just resign myself to trying to be always ~5k above the stall and
not being as "impressive" a pilot as I might be. Strangely, I've
noticed that I'm below POH distances for short field landings despite
my shortcomings as a pilot and failure to stall during landing.

Cheers

On Feb 14, 8:49 am, "Neil Gould" wrote:
Recently, posted:

Every flight in a light GA single should end in a full stall...right
as the wheels roll on to the runway...Unless folks know how to
handle the plane in a stall, they will not learn to land correctly
(I know this will start the flames!)-

That's a sweet ending, though -- flames or not -- especially when the
stall horn blows and the wheels just start turning.

Yeah baby!

Curious... in the Cessnas and Pipers that I fly the stall horn blows at
least 5 kts before the stall. So, when the stall horn is blowing and the
wheels touch down, the plane is still flying.

Neil

We had a jump pilot who (in a 206, with jump door) held a pretty
constant beep-beep-beep from rotation to about 500' on every
takeoff...no buffet, no stall. Sometimes we'd talk him (it didn't
take much) into holding it just off the grass down the runway and then
swoop the takeoff. Sigh.

My first time in a GA aircraft was my first jump...surrounded by
crazies who were going on up to jump out higher. Between the noise &
fear of heights when the door popped open its amazing I jumped again
that day.

Blueskies wrote:
Every flight in a light GA single should end in a full stall...right as the
wheels roll on to the runway...Unless folks know how to handle the plane in a
stall, they will not learn to land correctly (I know this will start the
flames!)


I had just started with a Part 135 cargo outfit and was doing the initial
training in a C-402. The check airman asked me for a stall. I gave him a
stall. I thought he and the other new hire were going to ****.

"Didn't you understand I wanted a stall? Give me another."

So I did. Just like before, the plane got pretty mushy and then it broke
cleanly. Once again, I thought they were going to ****. They were visibly
uncomfortable and I had no clue why.

Finally the check airman said, "When I ask for a stall, I expect you to recover
before it actually breaks."

"Well, why didn't you just say you wanted an 'approach to a stall'", I asked.
"What's the problem with doing a full stall in the 402?"

"We hever do full stalls in a twin", he said. The other guy agreed.

Well, you could have knocked me over with a feather. I was trained in the 402
originally by a retired USAF colonel and we always did full stalls in anything
he checked me out in... single or twin. He expected me to be familiar with the
stall characteristics of anything I flew, single or twin. Frankly, the 402
stalls just like a big C-172.... as long as you have the power equalized on both
sides. We did plenty of them.

Of course, no moron stalls a twin with asymetrical power. But otherwise it's
just another airplane.


--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote in
:

Blueskies wrote:
Every flight in a light GA single should end in a full stall...right
as the wheels roll on to the runway...Unless folks know how to handle
the plane in a stall, they will not learn to land correctly (I know
this will start the flames!)


I had just started with a Part 135 cargo outfit and was doing the
initial training in a C-402. The check airman asked me for a stall.
I gave him a stall. I thought he and the other new hire were going to
****.

"Didn't you understand I wanted a stall? Give me another."

So I did. Just like before, the plane got pretty mushy and then it
broke cleanly. Once again, I thought they were going to ****. They
were visibly uncomfortable and I had no clue why.

Finally the check airman said, "When I ask for a stall, I expect you
to recover before it actually breaks."

"Well, why didn't you just say you wanted an 'approach to a stall'", I
asked. "What's the problem with doing a full stall in the 402?"

"We hever do full stalls in a twin", he said. The other guy agreed.

I can't see any reason why you couldn't either. Did they pass you BTW?



Bertie