C172 and Spins

Dave Doe wrote:
In article ,
says...
Roger wrote:
On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 18:38:38 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Dan wrote:
Anyone else have expereince with the C172E (1964)?

No matter what I did I could not get that bird to spin to the right.

Left spins take some work, and power helps (of course).

But right it just wallows and then steep spirals.



Dan Mc
Try accelerating the stall a bit just before reaching the 1g stall point .
Decelerate the airplane carrying just a bit of power into the stall,
then just before it would break naturally, apply aggressive pitch, as
the stall breaks, apply full pro-spin rudder. It should break a lot
cleaner and right into the spin; assuming normal rigging.
Of course an extra bit of enthusiasm could lead to a snap roll. :-))
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Timing Rog....TIMING!!! With women and flying.......it's all in the
TIMING!!!! :-)))

Question on this - snap rolls can put some big strains on the a/c - so I
presume the a/c (most 172's I've flown, actually make that *all* - are
in the normal cat, not utility) - is aerobatic? - or at least in the
utility category?

I snap rolled a Traumahawk years ago when I performed a stall turn
(himmelman (sp?) - call it what you like) - when I whacked the rudder
in while I was (obviously) still above stall speed. I ended up flick
rolling and upside down and recovered just fine - but it scared the chit
out of me (the turning force was really quite considerable).

Opinions?

Only one. Don't snap a normal OR a utility category airplane. It ain't
healthy! :-)) Neither category comes near meeting aerobatic category
standards.
I would strongly suggest from reading what you say you were doing with a
Tomahawk that you not continue that practice PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

--
Dudley Henriques

On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:03:09 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Roger wrote:
On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 18:38:38 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Dan wrote:
Anyone else have expereince with the C172E (1964)?

No matter what I did I could not get that bird to spin to the right.

Left spins take some work, and power helps (of course).

But right it just wallows and then steep spirals.



Dan Mc
Try accelerating the stall a bit just before reaching the 1g stall point .
Decelerate the airplane carrying just a bit of power into the stall,
then just before it would break naturally, apply aggressive pitch, as
the stall breaks, apply full pro-spin rudder. It should break a lot
cleaner and right into the spin; assuming normal rigging.

Of course an extra bit of enthusiasm could lead to a snap roll. :-))
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


Timing Rog....TIMING!!! With women and flying.......it's all in the
TIMING!!!! :-)))

Yup, and if your timing is off on either they are likely to give you
an attitude adjustment along with a new outlook on life.:-))




Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Roger wrote:
On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:03:09 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Roger wrote:
On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 18:38:38 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Dan wrote:
Anyone else have expereince with the C172E (1964)?

No matter what I did I could not get that bird to spin to the right.

Left spins take some work, and power helps (of course).

But right it just wallows and then steep spirals.



Dan Mc
Try accelerating the stall a bit just before reaching the 1g stall point .
Decelerate the airplane carrying just a bit of power into the stall,
then just before it would break naturally, apply aggressive pitch, as
the stall breaks, apply full pro-spin rudder. It should break a lot
cleaner and right into the spin; assuming normal rigging.
Of course an extra bit of enthusiasm could lead to a snap roll. :-))
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Timing Rog....TIMING!!! With women and flying.......it's all in the
TIMING!!!! :-)))

Yup, and if your timing is off on either they are likely to give you
an attitude adjustment along with a new outlook on life.:-))




Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

At first glance the control inputs seem similar, but there are subtle
differences between the two maneuver entries.
There is no doubt that if mishandled, a ham handed pilot could initiate
a snap roll, but if done the way I suggested, the result should only be
an erect spin entry in an airplane like a 172.

The difference in the two inputs is that to initiate a snap, you need an
airspeed higher than for the spin entry but below Va, and the entry is
different. For the snap, you raise the nose to entry airspeed and
briskly apply full RUDDER in the desired roll direction. This is
FOLLOWED almost immediately with full back stick to cause an acellerated
stall. You need almost perfect timing to get it just right. Although
it's two control inputs, they are "jointed together" as one.
For the spin entry, you are simply leading a 1g stall at a very low
energy state with a pitch input without the rudder lead until the stall
breaks. As it breaks, you THEN apply pro-spin rudder to yaw the wing
into auto rotation.
I've never seen a snap roll develop from the spin entry input. The
controls are out of sequence; the timing is different; and the energy
state at initiation is not high enough to snap an airplane like a 172.

--
Dudley Henriques

On Mar 18, 8:57 pm, Roger wrote:
On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 18:38:38 -0400, Dudley Henriques



wrote:
Dan wrote:
Anyone else have expereince with the C172E (1964)?

No matter what I did I could not get that bird to spin to the right.

Left spins take some work, and power helps (of course).

But right it just wallows and then steep spirals.

Dan Mc
Try accelerating the stall a bit just before reaching the 1g stall point .
Decelerate the airplane carrying just a bit of power into the stall,
then just before it would break naturally, apply aggressive pitch, as
the stall breaks, apply full pro-spin rudder. It should break a lot
cleaner and right into the spin; assuming normal rigging.

Of course an extra bit of enthusiasm could lead to a snap roll. :-))
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)www.rogerhalstead.com

An enthusiastic Cross control stall has the same effect.

"Hey, I'm right side up!"
"Hey, I'm upside down!"

:-)

Dan

On Mar 18, 5:40 pm, Dan wrote:
On Mar 18, 8:57 pm, Roger wrote:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 18:38:38 -0400, Dudley Henriques

wrote:
Dan wrote:
Anyone else have expereince with the C172E (1964)?

No matter what I did I could not get that bird to spin to the right.

Left spins take some work, and power helps (of course).

But right it just wallows and then steep spirals.

Dan Mc
Try accelerating the stall a bit just before reaching the 1g stall point .
Decelerate the airplane carrying just a bit of power into the stall,
then just before it would break naturally, apply aggressive pitch, as
the stall breaks, apply full pro-spin rudder. It should break a lot
cleaner and right into the spin; assuming normal rigging.

Of course an extra bit of enthusiasm could lead to a snap roll. :-))
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)www.rogerhalstead.com

An enthusiastic Cross control stall has the same effect.

"Hey, I'm right side up!"
"Hey, I'm upside down!"

Now you're talking!
Do a 180 roll, then stall, and watch the heading
indicator do a fast 180, (The attitude indicator is
having a fit), as you recover from a spiral dive.
Most Flight Instructors are sissy pilots, that's
how I qualify them, by how much they shreak.
Ken

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in
:

On Mar 18, 5:40 pm, Dan wrote:
On Mar 18, 8:57 pm, Roger wrote:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 18:38:38 -0400, Dudley Henriques

wrote:
Dan wrote:
Anyone else have expereince with the C172E (1964)?

No matter what I did I could not get that bird to spin to the
right.

Left spins take some work, and power helps (of course).

But right it just wallows and then steep spirals.

Dan Mc
Try accelerating the stall a bit just before reaching the 1g stall
point . Decelerate the airplane carrying just a bit of power into
the stall, then just before it would break naturally, apply
aggressive pitch, as the stall breaks, apply full pro-spin rudder.
It should break a lot cleaner and right into the spin; assuming
normal rigging.

Of course an extra bit of enthusiasm could lead to a snap roll.
:-)) Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)www.rogerhalstead.com

An enthusiastic Cross control stall has the same effect.

"Hey, I'm right side up!"
"Hey, I'm upside down!"

Now you're talking!
Do a 180 roll, then stall, and watch the heading
indicator do a fast 180, (The attitude indicator is
having a fit), as you recover from a spiral dive.
Most Flight Instructors are sissy pilots, that's
how I qualify them, by how much they shreak.

Good God. Those poor boys


Bertie

"Roger" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 18:38:38 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Dan wrote:
Anyone else have expereince with the C172E (1964)?

No matter what I did I could not get that bird to spin to the right.

Left spins take some work, and power helps (of course).

But right it just wallows and then steep spirals.



Dan Mc
Try accelerating the stall a bit just before reaching the 1g stall point .
Decelerate the airplane carrying just a bit of power into the stall,
then just before it would break naturally, apply aggressive pitch, as
the stall breaks, apply full pro-spin rudder. It should break a lot
cleaner and right into the spin; assuming normal rigging.

Of course an extra bit of enthusiasm could lead to a snap roll. :-))
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Hi Roger,

That is understandable. Of course, a snap roll is just a spin in a
different direction! :-) It is the only way to roll in an old Citabria with
no spades. Otherwise your arm wears out holding that aileron pressure! :-)

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport PJY

On Mar 17, 3:19 pm, Dan wrote:
Anyone else have expereince with the C172E (1964)?

No matter what I did I could not get that bird to spin to the right.

Left spins take some work, and power helps (of course).

But right it just wallows and then steep spirals.

Dan Mc

172s are reluctant to spin anyway. They'll do it to the lft
readily enough if some power is used to get the speed lower and nose
higher just before stall, but to the right they'll sometimes just
rumble around into a spiral. The left wing stalls earlier due to the
rotating propeller blast striking the left root at a higher AOA, and
so trying to spin right just makes them both stall at the same time,
which won't encourage autorotation.

Dan

On Mar 17, 5:42*pm, wrote:
On Mar 17, 3:19 pm, Dan wrote:

Anyone else have expereince with the C172E (1964)?

No matter what I did I could not get that bird to spin to the right.

Left spins take some work, and power helps (of course).

But right it just wallows and then steep spirals.

Dan Mc

* * 172s are reluctant to spin anyway. They'll do it to the lft
readily enough if some power is used to get the speed lower and nose
higher just before stall, but to the right they'll sometimes just
rumble around into a spiral. The left wing stalls earlier due to the
rotating propeller blast striking the left root at a higher AOA, and
so trying to spin right just makes them both stall at the same time,
which won't encourage autorotation.

* * * Dan

What is difference between a spin and a spiral?

On Mar 17, 9:42 pm, skym wrote:
On Mar 17, 5:42 pm, wrote:



On Mar 17, 3:19 pm, Dan wrote:

Anyone else have expereince with the C172E (1964)?

No matter what I did I could not get that bird to spin to the right.

Left spins take some work, and power helps (of course).

But right it just wallows and then steep spirals.

Dan Mc

172s are reluctant to spin anyway. They'll do it to the lft
readily enough if some power is used to get the speed lower and nose
higher just before stall, but to the right they'll sometimes just
rumble around into a spiral. The left wing stalls earlier due to the
rotating propeller blast striking the left root at a higher AOA, and
so trying to spin right just makes them both stall at the same time,
which won't encourage autorotation.

Dan

What is difference between a spin and a spiral?

A spin is a condition of stalled flight -- usually due to yaw applied
at the moment the wing stalls. This can be caused intentionally or
unintentionally (such as not accounting for left turning when
practicing stalls).

Airspeed is very low, while descent rate is high, all while pitching
and yawing to the right or left. One wing is providing slightly more
lift and this causes the autorotation.

The wings are not stalled in a spiral, and the airspeed is high and/
or increasing.


Dan Mc