F-104 maxed out

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 19:15:19 -0500, "Paul F Austin"
wrote:


"Scott Ferrin" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 06:36:25 -0600, "John Carrier"
wrote:

Relatively easy to fit a smaller diameter engine into the space in which
a
larger one fit. The retrofit of the 110 engine into the F-14's engine
bays
(TF-30's somewhat physically larger than a J-79 BTW) was a real squeeze.

Compressor inlet temp can be handled by water injection (Skyburner F-4
had
it, Greenameyer's F-104 was getting it). Canopy overheating is another
problem.

R / John

If you have access to AW&ST you might want to read about Rascal that
DARPA is kicking around. It's pretty interesting and it's along
similar lines.

Can you be more specific? I searched AvWeek's site for DARPA and Rascal and
came up empty.


It's the cover story for the September 22, 2003 issue of Aviation Week
& Space Technology. Also of interest in that issue is "New Stealth"
on page 32.

There are three redlines for the F104A with either the -3b or the -19
engine.
710 KIAS, 121C or M 2.0. I believe most Zipper pilots honored these
limits in the breach, as the Limeys say. They are all artificial
limits as even the -3b engined proverbial 'squadron dog' would exceed
all 3 limits. The hard concrete limit is the aluminum airframe. M 2.4
at STP will anneal the aluminum alloy and now the design strength is
gone never to return. (The F106 on display at the USAFA is a case in
int - 2.46 Mach and she was grounded forever.)
FWIW the 2.0 limit is because of reduction in lateral stability beow
USAF criteria; Cnbeta limit is .03; think of this as a stability
restitution coefficient. Of course if you don't do anything really
dumb like stomping on teh rudder - hey,let 'er rip.
The KIAS limit is because of internal pressure limits at the rear of
the compressor. There is a limit built into the fuel control and it's
quite noticeable when it cuts in - but you're over 710 when it does.
the airplane is accelerating like mad because those little scoops are
really taking in the ram air and all of a sudden the 'governor' cuts
in and she stops accelerating. I remember seeing at that point about
750 and 1.2 on the clock at about 100 ASL just before I went right
over the top of a shrimp trawler on a test hop early one Florida
morning - and that was with an old tired -3b engine.
The 121C limit is from a temp sensor in the generator cooling air
duct. It turns on the Slow light. The 100 CIT is from the T2 probe at
the front of the compressor.
I know a couple fearless single Zipper pilots who have been out all
the way up at altitude; neither would own up to what their Mach was.
One of them returned with scorched paint on his warhead-loaded AIM9s.
The other was turned ;ate on a supersonic target on a night exercise -
the conroller called 'skip it - we're too far behind.' Howie replied
'keep talking' and put teh throttle in teh far left corner. He heard
the controller over an open mike call otu to his buddies - 'Hey! Come
look at this!' Howie caught and passed an f4 cruisng supersonic in
(probably) minimum AB. Howie, back then, wasn't about to let a little
thing like a book limit bother him. He also let teh F4 know he was
there. We wondered what the F4 crew thought as something blitzed past
them close aboard at least 500 knots faster than they were cruising.
One thing I noticed was the fuel flow increase as the IAS increased. A
static 8500PPH at the end of the runway (those little intakes!) during
the pre-takeoff runup rose to about 12500 at 600KIAS, still on the
deck. Since the fuel-air ratio is fixed that indicates the thrust
developed increased proportionately. Once took a Dash19 Zipper right
off the line, usual war load of 20mm ammo plus 2 AIM9Bs, from brake
release to 45000 in 90 seconds flat. Takeoff acceleration was from
brake release to .97 - 43 seconds. Rotated to hold .97 and at 40000
stood her on her tail. Exhilirating ride! Mommy, I want a Zipper for
Christmas!
Walt BJ

In the G model, we could and did run it out to 800KIAS. Not for very long,
however!!
"WaltBJ" wrote in message
m...
There are three redlines for the F104A with either the -3b or the -19
engine.
710 KIAS, 121C or M 2.0. I believe most Zipper pilots honored these
limits in the breach, as the Limeys say. They are all artificial
limits as even the -3b engined proverbial 'squadron dog' would exceed
all 3 limits. The hard concrete limit is the aluminum airframe. M 2.4
at STP will anneal the aluminum alloy and now the design strength is
gone never to return. (The F106 on display at the USAFA is a case in
int - 2.46 Mach and she was grounded forever.)
FWIW the 2.0 limit is because of reduction in lateral stability beow
USAF criteria; Cnbeta limit is .03; think of this as a stability
restitution coefficient. Of course if you don't do anything really
dumb like stomping on teh rudder - hey,let 'er rip.
The KIAS limit is because of internal pressure limits at the rear of
the compressor. There is a limit built into the fuel control and it's
quite noticeable when it cuts in - but you're over 710 when it does.
the airplane is accelerating like mad because those little scoops are
really taking in the ram air and all of a sudden the 'governor' cuts
in and she stops accelerating. I remember seeing at that point about
750 and 1.2 on the clock at about 100 ASL just before I went right
over the top of a shrimp trawler on a test hop early one Florida
morning - and that was with an old tired -3b engine.
The 121C limit is from a temp sensor in the generator cooling air
duct. It turns on the Slow light. The 100 CIT is from the T2 probe at
the front of the compressor.
I know a couple fearless single Zipper pilots who have been out all
the way up at altitude; neither would own up to what their Mach was.
One of them returned with scorched paint on his warhead-loaded AIM9s.
The other was turned ;ate on a supersonic target on a night exercise -
the conroller called 'skip it - we're too far behind.' Howie replied
'keep talking' and put teh throttle in teh far left corner. He heard
the controller over an open mike call otu to his buddies - 'Hey! Come
look at this!' Howie caught and passed an f4 cruisng supersonic in
(probably) minimum AB. Howie, back then, wasn't about to let a little
thing like a book limit bother him. He also let teh F4 know he was
there. We wondered what the F4 crew thought as something blitzed past
them close aboard at least 500 knots faster than they were cruising.
One thing I noticed was the fuel flow increase as the IAS increased. A
static 8500PPH at the end of the runway (those little intakes!) during
the pre-takeoff runup rose to about 12500 at 600KIAS, still on the
deck. Since the fuel-air ratio is fixed that indicates the thrust
developed increased proportionately. Once took a Dash19 Zipper right
off the line, usual war load of 20mm ammo plus 2 AIM9Bs, from brake
release to 45000 in 90 seconds flat. Takeoff acceleration was from
brake release to .97 - 43 seconds. Rotated to hold .97 and at 40000
stood her on her tail. Exhilirating ride! Mommy, I want a Zipper for
Christmas!
Walt BJ

WaltBJ wrote:

There are three redlines for the F104A with either the -3b or the -19
engine.
710 KIAS, 121C or M 2.0. I believe most Zipper pilots honored these
limits in the breach, as the Limeys say.

Walt, are you sure you weren't thinking of the Deuce (or some other a/c),
as far as the KIAS redline goes? I checked the F-104A-1, and for a clean
(or AIM-9s and/or pylons at the tips) a/c all it says is 650KEAS at sea
level, increasing linearly to 750KEAS at 5,000 and up (there doesn't
appear to be a fixed redline on the ASI at all, just a yellow line @
240KIAS for max. landing flap speed). The instrument section of the Dash
1 dealing with the ASI/Machmeter says "The second aneroid drives the
maximum allowable airspeed pointer. This pointer is preset to the
aircraft's maximum equivalent airspeed and increases with altitude,"
agreeing with the operating limits info.

Guy

Thank's for a great post Walt. Maybe an alternative nick
for the Zipper could be UF-104-O - unidentified flying
104 object.


Regards...




(WaltBJ) wrote in
m:

There are three redlines for the F104A with either the -3b or
the -19 engine.
710 KIAS, 121C or M 2.0. I believe most Zipper pilots honored
these limits in the breach, as the Limeys say. They are all
artificial limits as even the -3b engined proverbial 'squadron
dog' would exceed all 3 limits. The hard concrete limit is the
aluminum airframe. M 2.4 at STP will anneal the aluminum alloy
and now the design strength is gone never to return. (The F106
on display at the USAFA is a case in int - 2.46 Mach and she was
grounded forever.) FWIW the 2.0 limit is because of reduction
in lateral stability beow USAF criteria; Cnbeta limit is .03;
think of this as a stability restitution coefficient. Of course
if you don't do anything really dumb like stomping on teh rudder
- hey,let 'er rip. The KIAS limit is because of internal
pressure limits at the rear of the compressor. There is a limit
built into the fuel control and it's quite noticeable when it
cuts in - but you're over 710 when it does. the airplane is
accelerating like mad because those little scoops are really
taking in the ram air and all of a sudden the 'governor' cuts
in and she stops accelerating. I remember seeing at that point
about 750 and 1.2 on the clock at about 100 ASL just before I
went right over the top of a shrimp trawler on a test hop early
one Florida morning - and that was with an old tired -3b engine.
The 121C limit is from a temp sensor in the generator cooling
air duct. It turns on the Slow light. The 100 CIT is from the T2
probe at the front of the compressor.
I know a couple fearless single Zipper pilots who have been out
all the way up at altitude; neither would own up to what their
Mach was. One of them returned with scorched paint on his
warhead-loaded AIM9s. The other was turned ;ate on a supersonic
target on a night exercise - the conroller called 'skip it -
we're too far behind.' Howie replied 'keep talking' and put teh
throttle in teh far left corner. He heard the controller over an
open mike call otu to his buddies - 'Hey! Come look at this!'
Howie caught and passed an f4 cruisng supersonic in (probably)
minimum AB. Howie, back then, wasn't about to let a little thing
like a book limit bother him. He also let teh F4 know he was
there. We wondered what the F4 crew thought as something blitzed
past them close aboard at least 500 knots faster than they were
cruising. One thing I noticed was the fuel flow increase as the
IAS increased. A static 8500PPH at the end of the runway (those
little intakes!) during the pre-takeoff runup rose to about
12500 at 600KIAS, still on the deck. Since the fuel-air ratio is
fixed that indicates the thrust developed increased
proportionately. Once took a Dash19 Zipper right off the line,
usual war load of 20mm ammo plus 2 AIM9Bs, from brake release to
45000 in 90 seconds flat. Takeoff acceleration was from brake
release to .97 - 43 seconds. Rotated to hold .97 and at 40000
stood her on her tail. Exhilirating ride! Mommy, I want a Zipper
for Christmas!
Walt BJ