|
| If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|||||||
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
|
|
#1
February 14th 04, 11:54 PM
|
|||
|
|||
Name ONE thing Lippisch invented. The flying wing? Lilienthal developed them as gliders in the 1800s. Oh gee, he's German too so that doesn't count. Actually almost every one of the early glider designers, including the Wrights, made at least one flying wing. Ailerons? Try Glenn Curtiss. Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired Dan, Here's a whole bunch of things Lippisch pioneered: http://www.lippischdesign.com/pages/collage.html Only some ex-USAF clod would try to defame Dr. Alexander Lippisch. Rob 
|
|
#3
February 15th 04, 03:10 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
In article ,
(robert arndt) wrote: Here's a whole bunch of things Lippisch pioneered: http://www.lippischdesign.com/pages/collage.html Well, from that page, he really didn't "pioneer" much. He built some very nice gliders, he pushed the tailless delta wing concept, and he designed a lot of other stuff that didn't really work out very well, like a coal-burning ramjet and an outboard-powered ground-effect boat. His two big successes were the Me-163 and his gliders. Other than that, not so much. -- cirby at cfl.rr.com Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations. Slam on brakes accordingly.
|
|
#4
February 14th 04, 11:32 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
"robert arndt" wrote in message om... "Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ... "robert arndt" wrote in message om... http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/annex/an51.htm ... more "borrowed" German-tech courtesy of Dr. Alexander Lippisch. From the Lippisch DM-1/P.13 we got the XF-92, F-102, F-106, and B-58. Rob On that basis the V-2 was built using borrowed US technology. 'Goddard was ahead of us all ' Werner Von Braun Keith Right... Germany got it's rocketry from Oberth, not Goddard: http://www.oberth-museum.org/museum_e.htm BTW, the Allies had no equivalent to the V-2 and most every other German missile design. Absolutely correct. We never were stupid enough to deploy a missile that killed more of our own workers building it than the numbers of our enemy that it managed kill when fired. At no time did we warp our entire defnce industries producing a weapon with no real military value that sucked up scarce resources desperately needed for defense of the homeland. It never occurred to us that a weapon which cost more per round than the value of the damage it caused. No we just developed the weapons that won the war, not very imaginative perhaps but hey as a strategy its effectiveness is demonstrated by the fact that this conversation is in English. Keith
|
|
#5
February 15th 04, 10:41 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"robert arndt" wrote in message om... "Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ... "robert arndt" wrote in message om... http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/annex/an51.htm ... more "borrowed" German-tech courtesy of Dr. Alexander Lippisch. From the Lippisch DM-1/P.13 we got the XF-92, F-102, F-106, and B-58. Rob On that basis the V-2 was built using borrowed US technology. 'Goddard was ahead of us all ' Werner Von Braun Keith Right... Germany got it's rocketry from Oberth, not Goddard: http://www.oberth-museum.org/museum_e.htm BTW, the Allies had no equivalent to the V-2 and most every other German missile design. Absolutely correct. We never were stupid enough to deploy a missile that killed more of our own workers building it than the numbers of our enemy that it managed kill when fired. At no time did we warp our entire defnce industries producing a weapon with no real military value that sucked up scarce resources desperately needed for defense of the homeland. It never occurred to us that a weapon which cost more per round than the value of the damage it caused. No we just developed the weapons that won the war, not very imaginative perhaps but hey as a strategy its effectiveness is demonstrated by the fact that this conversation is in English. Keith No A-bomb was dropped on Germany and the Reds did all the real fighting on the ground... so you didn't win with any specific weapons just NUMBERS OF MEN AND MATERIAL- a deluge NO army in history could win against. Of course the Germans DID fight non-stop for 6 years and introduced incredible weapons that influenced the way we fight war for 6 decades now. And they did it under TOTAL BOMBARDMENT. The US was NEVER BOMBED and Britain only marginally compared to Germany. How many weapons would the US have produced under total bombardment? How come we had every advantage and only claim the A-bomb, radar, and the P-51D Mustang? The US should have produced everyhting the Germans did... but did not. And if you think the Allies are so great why then did they send all their experts into Germany hunting for secret weapons and every scrap of technology they could find? Wright Field held thousands of TONs of captured documents- the largest brain-drain and theft of entire nation in history. And you dare to say no one benefitted from it? Bull****. You're a joke Keith. My next door neighbor was in the OSS. He died in 1981 but before he did I asked him what exactly they found in Germany. He told me something I'll never forget, "among the jets and rockets we found things that we could not comprehend at the time". He actually was there and saw the stuff. You didn't, so **** off. Rob
|
|
#6
February 15th 04, 01:11 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
"robert arndt" wrote in message om... No A-bomb was dropped on Germany Didnt say it was and the Reds did all the real fighting on the ground... so you didn't win with any specific weapons just NUMBERS OF MEN AND MATERIAL Having destroyed Germany's synthetic oil plants by strategic bombing and devastated its transport infrasructure. - a deluge NO army in history could win against. Of course the Germans DID fight non-stop for 6 years and They werent bright enough to realise invading Russia AND declaring war on the USA wasnt smart introduced incredible weapons that influenced the way we fight war for 6 decades now. And they did it under TOTAL BOMBARDMENT. The US was NEVER BOMBED and Britain only marginally compared to Germany. Because Britain managed to use its scientific resources to build 1) An effective air defense system 2) An effective long range bomber force How many weapons would the US have produced under total bombardment? How come we had every advantage and only claim the A-bomb, radar, and the P-51D Mustang? The US should have produced everyhting the Germans did... but did not. No, it produced useful weapons instead of supersonic phallic symbols with no military value. To wit Efficient air dropped homing torpedoes and long range maritime patrol aircraft that decimated the u-boats The proximity fuse that was responsible for improving the efficiency of AA by almost an order of magnitude Centimetric radar that allowed the allied nightfighters to destroy German hightfighters over their own bases, find the U-boats at night and allowed British airctaft from malta to find and sink Rommel's transports at night Efficient logistical systems using practical developments such as standard containers to keep the armies supplied Programmble computers that allowed the codebreakers to read German cipher traffic so fast that by 1944 Eisenhower would be reading Hitlers orders to Rommel at the same time Rommel did, etc etc And if you think the Allies are so great why then did they send all their experts into Germany hunting for secret weapons and every scrap of technology they could find? Wright Field held thousands of TONs of captured documents- the largest brain-drain and theft of entire nation in history. Because looting is what winners do, And you dare to say no one benefitted from it? Bull****. I didnt say anything of the sort, I merely pointed out that it didnt benefit GERMANY You're a joke Keith. My next door neighbor was in the OSS. He died in 1981 but before he did I asked him what exactly they found in Germany. He told me something I'll never forget, "among the jets and rockets we found things that we could not comprehend at the time". He actually was there and saw the stuff. You didn't, so **** off. My father was there Herr Arndt, he saw more than rockets and jets, he saw Bergen Belsen. I grew up in a British city in the 50's where the ruins of bombed out buildings were a normal part of life. My best friend at school was the son of a German jew who came to Britain in 1936 and helped ICI build its synthetic fuel plant, NONE of the rest of his family survived the camps. The Nazi state was brutal corrupt and above all inefficient. In every measure of arms production they lagged behind in productivity. Despite their control of all the resources of Western Europe, Britain alone outproduced Germany in fighter and bomber aircraft and artillery and tanks. In 1943 and 1944 with a vast Soviet army headed their way and an Anglo American army chewing them up in Italy they decided to build not masses of anti-tank weapons but a rocket with no military value. This criminal waste of irreplaceable resources and manpower is what you are so proud of and yet it in fact only served helped hasten the defeat of the Reich. Keith
|
|
#7
February 15th 04, 10:55 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
"robert arndt" wrote in message om... snip of Arndt being spanked by Keith No A-bomb was dropped on Germany Wasn't needed--the Nazi regime caved before we were even able to do the Trinity test. and the Reds did all the real fighting on the ground... Which would be a surprise to the Wehrmacht armies that got shoved out of North Africa, bullied up the length of Italy, cut off and captured in France, and then penetrated and exploited in both the Ruhr and farther south, all by the western allies. so you didn't win with any specific weapons just NUMBERS OF MEN AND MATERIAL- No, as Keith pointed out, a more intelligently *managed*, compared to the German approach at the time, deluge of men and materiel. a deluge NO army in history could win against. Especially one that, courtesy of its leadership, had blundered so badly and in so many ways. Of course the Germans DID fight non-stop for 6 years and introduced incredible weapons that influenced the way we fight war for 6 decades now. And what is that prize for just "being a good tryer" called in war...? Oh, yeah, that's right--LOSER. And they did it under TOTAL BOMBARDMENT. Which they could not overcome, despite your continued references to super weapons. Again, poor leadership decisions. The US was NEVER BOMBED and Britain only marginally compared to Germany. The US was not stupid enough to start a war that opened it to such treatment--Germany was, and paid for the error. Deal with it. The Brits just proved superior to the German efforts directed at bombing it into submission. How many weapons would the US have produced under total bombardment? Dumb question--the German's could not bombard the US, and the closest the Japanese came to a strategic bombing campaign against the US were a few incendiary balloons which had no significant effect. How come we had every advantage and only claim the A-bomb, radar, and the P-51D Mustang? Who says that is all we can claim? The US should have produced everyhting the Germans did... but did not. We (speaking of the western allies as a whole) produced the VT fuze; the Germans did not. We produced reliable and robust four engined bombers; the Germans did not. We produced enough trucks to motorize the entire ground force--the Germans were still relying on horses for a significant part of their ground transport when the war ended. The list can go on and on... And if you think the Allies are so great why then did they send all their experts into Germany hunting for secret weapons and every scrap of technology they could find? Because we were smart enough to try and take advantage of the research that the Germans had largely wasted? Wright Field held thousands of TONs of captured documents- the largest brain-drain and theft of entire nation in history. It is not "theft" when you are the losing nation--think of it as "intellectual reparations". And you dare to say no one benefitted from it? From the specific program you claim to have been the foundation of the F-102? Nope, not really. Bull****. No, that has been you product, not Keith's. You're a joke Keith. No, he is not, especially compared to the deluded, and delusional, likes of you. My next door neighbor was in the OSS. God, I bet you'd *really* have been impressed with him if he'd not had that initial "O" in that title... He died in 1981 but before he did I asked him what exactly they found in Germany. Lots of rubble? He told me something I'll never forget, "among the jets and rockets we found things that we could not comprehend at the time". He actually was there and saw the stuff. Even if he did say that (and your rep is not such that we can depend upon the accuracy of your claim), so what? You didn't, so **** off. So Keith has demonstrated a better grasp of the significance of the material in question than your neighbor did; again, so what? Brooks Rob
|
|
#8
February 15th 04, 10:55 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
|
|
#9
February 16th 04, 12:46 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
robert arndt wrote:
snip And if you think the Allies are so great why then did they send all their experts into Germany hunting for secret weapons and every scrap of technology they could find? Wright Field held thousands of TONs of Do you have a source on this? "thousands of TONS?" Not very plausible. Cheers --mike captured documents- the largest brain-drain and theft of entire nation in history. snip Rob
|
|
#10
February 16th 04, 05:31 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
robert arndt wrote in message . ..
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ... (snip) We never were stupid enough to deploy a missile that killed more of our own workers building it than the numbers of our enemy that it managed kill when fired. At no time did we warp our entire defnce industries producing a weapon with no real military value that sucked up scarce resources desperately needed for defense of the homeland. It never occurred to us that a weapon which cost more per round than the value of the damage it caused. No we just developed the weapons that won the war, not very imaginative perhaps but hey as a strategy its effectiveness is demonstrated by the fact that this conversation is in English. Keith No A-bomb was dropped on Germany Ah the need to throw in something different. and the Reds did all the real fighting on the ground... Except for the clearing of western Europe and North Africa. so you didn't win with any specific weapons just NUMBERS OF MEN AND MATERIAL- a deluge NO army in history could win against. Amazing then the very bright German high command voluntarily decided to take on the combination. By the way the above text is "you didn't win", below is "we won". Robert keeps becoming a WWII German then changing to something else. Of course the Germans DID fight non-stop for 6 years October 1939 to April 1940? The gap in land operations June 1940 to April 1941? The fact September 1939 to April 1945 is 5 years 8 months? The British fought for nearly 6 years less the early pauses, the RN was in the war for 6 years, the Chinese were at war for around 8 to 9 years, as were the Japanese. and introduced incredible weapons that influenced the way we fight war for 6 decades now. You mean like the advanced radars, major radio networking, the atomic weapons and propulsion systems, the use of airpower against an economy, aircraft carriers, fully motorising the armies, proximity fuses, awacs, controlled air interception? And they did it under TOTAL BOMBARDMENT. The US was NEVER BOMBED and Britain only marginally compared to Germany. To the end of 1941 the British estimates are the Luftwaffe had dropped around 57,000 tons of bombs on Britain, by the end of 1942 that was up to around 60,000 tons. This tonnage excludes incendiary bombs. Bomber Command records have the RAF tonnage on Germany as of the end of February 1942 as 31,714 tons, by the end of 1942 67,221 tons. Until around the end of the third quarter of 1942 there were more German bombs on Britain than the other way around. So go and compare the British economy in 1940, 1941 and into 1942 versus the German one. Bomber Command's halfway point for bombs on Germany was in September 1944, the 8th Air Force's mid November 1944. The 8th passed the 60,000 tons of bombs on Germany mark in March 1944, and this counts incendiaries. The US was bombed, by Japanese float planes and balloons, as well as having a couple of bombardments by submarines. Minor it is true but non zero, and I am not counting a place called Alaska, which is normally considered a part of the US. How many weapons would the US have produced under total bombardment? Given the larger size of the economy and greater distance to the targets from outside the US probably more weapons as the attacks could allow the government to squeeze the population more while the raids did little lasting damage. Especially with Goering as the head of the attacking air force. Bf109 range was? As a percentage of the width and depth of the US? How come we had every advantage and only claim the A-bomb, radar, and the P-51D Mustang? Given the cost of the a-bomb that alone is a substantial advantage. Add a large navy, ground controlled interception, the new way of naval warfare, the more advanced electronics, medical advances like mass production of penicillin and so on. The US had to solve different problems than the Germans, so it is not surprising different areas made better progress, but that has to be ignored. The US should have produced everyhting the Germans did... but did not. So tell us all where are the Kriegsmarine Essex class carriers? How about say a few escort carriers? The major shipbuilding program to enable armies and navies to fight at the other end of the Atlantic and Pacific? The advanced radars, penicillin, whole blood service and so on. How about using high speed cameras to record wind tunnel tests? How about the banning of personal radios by the Nazis, thereby removing the chance for a large number of people to learn to use radios for themselves, given how much of WWII was a radio war. Why wasn't the Luftwaffe air defence system as good as the RAF's in 1940? Since Germany had around a 50% bigger population than Britain, just as the USA had around the same margin over Germany why didn't the Germans produce everything the British did? Mosquitoes come to mind as aircraft, reliable jet engines another, airborne radars in 1940, machines ("computers") to break codes and so on and the Germans should have easily matched the British in the 1942/43 time period, since they had the less bombed economy, correct? How about the LST, a large ocean going ship that could beach itself and handle vehicles. The Japanese had long range single engined fighters in 1940, why didn't the Germans? Shall we go on, say why didn't the Germans have a written language when the Greeks and Romans did? And if you think the Allies are so great why then did they send all their experts into Germany hunting for secret weapons and every scrap of technology they could find? Wright Field held thousands of TONs of captured documents- the largest brain-drain and theft of entire nation in history. Given the amount of theft that goes on in war I doubt what the western allies did in 1945 was the greatest theft ever, and it makes sense to merge the German and allied research, just look at the benefits when the US and UK merged theirs, and justify it as reparations for the damage the Germans did. The greatest brain drain was done by the Nazis, look at all the people who left before the war. Different countries had different priorities, the allies decided to benefit from that, saves work. And you dare to say no one benefitted from it? Bull****. No Keith makes the point that your claims about what benefits there were are greatly exaggerated. You're a joke Keith. My next door neighbor was in the OSS. He died in 1981 but before he did I asked him what exactly they found in Germany. He told me something I'll never forget, "among the jets and rockets we found things that we could not comprehend at the time". He actually was there and saw the stuff. You didn't, so **** off. This is quite funny, the idea OSS operators were chosen for expertise in advanced aerodynamics, the unsupported verbal claim used as "proof". It is quite simple when Keith states something it is normally correct, when Robert states something it is normally fiction. Just check with other sources. Geoffrey Sinclair Remove the nb for email.
|
| Thread Tools | |
| Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads
|
||||
| Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
| 50% of NAZI oil was supplied from US | Grantland | Military Aviation | 106 | January 18th 14 07:58 PM |
| German KT-P2 Celestial Navigation Kompass | robert arndt | Military Aviation | 0 | February 7th 04 04:51 PM |
| Soviet Submarines Losses - WWII | Mike Yared | Military Aviation | 4 | October 30th 03 03:09 AM |
| German historian provokes row over war photos | BackToNormal | Military Aviation | 21 | October 24th 03 11:32 PM |
| Joint German-Israeli airforce excersie (Israeli airforce beats German pilots) | Quant | Military Aviation | 8 | September 25th 03 05:41 PM |
Hybrid Mode
