the trend is............

Doesn't a winch launch use more fuel than a self-launch? And won't the
fuel he uses to commute to work eat into any savings from winch launching?

--


Eric

We average 1/2 liter of fuel per winch launch. This has been the
average over the last 10 years. We launch from a 1000 meter field and
get 350-400 meter launches.
We launch everything from K8's to Nimbus 3DT's. The consumption goes
up if you are only launching double seaters but overall 1/2 liter per
launch is the average.

Bob

Now, now Eric.

A launch uses less than 800ml ( 1 quart) of petrol on our prehistoric inefficient Ford V8 powered winch. That is an
average over decades of use...

That gives around 1300 to 1700 feet AGL depending on wind, aircraft and skill - add some fuel for the retrieve and you
are still around 1 litre per launch with our winch (almost exclusively big heavy old two seaters). Newer multi drum
designs are a lot better.

I expect the average self launcher is using a lot more than that to get to the first thermal. Average engine time is
apparently around 5 minutes. (Schleicher figure)

Assume you have a strong SLMG say an ASH26 which claims 3.4m/s climb. You need 2.7 minutes of full power climb + run up
+ ground run + shut down to end at the same height.
The AE50R is relatively fuel efficient, (most SLMGs are two strokes) but it is still developing around 37kw for 4-5
minutes. Max power at 6900RPM uses 16 litres in 75 minutes - so five tach minutes gives you 1.06 litres.

Remarkably similar to a winch.

Just my bit of matchbox arithmetic - I assume you have actual fuel consumption numbers?

Of course the bottom line is that the fuel used in either launch mode is far exceeded by the trip to the airfield for
almost everyone, and is negligible in comparison to the work commute. My 216km round trip to the glider field uses
around 18l if I am VERY well behaved.

I find that the economy on my work commute is exceptional when I work from home.

Bruce

Eric Greenwell wrote:
Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2008 08:18:10 -0700, Brad wrote:

As a bottom feeder in the economic food chain, when all gliders that are
flying are motorgliders, I'll be looking at all the pictures I took when
I used to be able to fly a non-powered sailplane. Since it will be
somewhat impossible for me to ever afford a powered sailplane.

No complaints, just an honest asessment.

Move near to a winching site and you'll have the last laugh as fuel
prices go sky high.

Doesn't a winch launch use more fuel than a self-launch? And won't the
fuel he uses to commute to work eat into any savings from winch launching?

On Oct 19, 4:56*pm, Martin Gregorie
wrote:

Move near to a winching site and you'll have the last laugh as fuel
prices go sky high.

I know places where you can winch straight into wave....

--
martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org * * * |

I would have to move at least 1000 miles, and probably across the
Atlantic ocean to get near a winch launch site. If gas gets stupid
expensive, I'll have to switch to sailboats, cause I live right on the
water.

Todd Smith
3S

On Oct 21, 2:15*pm, toad wrote:
On Oct 19, 4:56*pm, Martin Gregorie

wrote:

Move near to a winching site and you'll have the last laugh as fuel
prices go sky high.

I know places where you can winch straight into wave....

--
martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org * * * |

I would have to move at least 1000 miles, and probably across the
Atlantic ocean to get near a winch launch site. *If gas gets stupid
expensive, I'll have to switch to sailboats, cause I live right on the
water.

Todd Smith
3S
1000miles? probably not

From you
Dansville, NY 333mi
Perkasie, PA 173mi
North Adams, MA 127mi (still listed on web site, but not sure of
current winch status though)

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:15:43 -0700, toad wrote:

On Oct 19, 4:56Â*pm, Martin Gregorie
wrote:

I know places where you can winch straight into wave....

The nicest one I know was several years ago at Portmoak (Scotland), in
the days when glider fuselages were doped canvas over steel tube and
wood. I was told this story during a recent visit which, alas, got me no
wave climbs though the ridge was fun for this flatland pilot.

An older pilot took a winch launch, noticed weak wave at release and sat
there, going slowly but surely up above the winch, eventually
disappearing upwards. The next few gliders to launch headed for the
ridge, missing the wave.

Eventually our pilot reappeared and landed. He was apparently a stroppy
guy and was quite loud about the idiots who'd headed for the ridge
instead of seeing and following him. Anyway, when asked how high he'd
got, he said "18,000 feet". People knew his altimeter was dodgy and asked
how he decided when to come down. His reply was that when his cigarette
went out for the third time he knew he was high enough!

If gas gets stupid expensive,

I was thinking as much about the disappearance of 100LL avgas as what it
might cost in future.

If auto gas also gets costly commuting habits may have to change.
Consider the joys living by the gliding club and teleworking from purpose-
built office space at the field.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Since two years I own an ASW 28-18E and since May I have a share in an
ASH 26E.

My experience is that I get more pure gliding hours today than I did 2
years ago when I was flying my good old H304 (which I flew for 20 years).

If you can afford it, SSG/SLG will certainly give you more pure gliding
hours than a pure glider.

"Cheating"? Certainly, but it comes with age I think. When I was 20 I
could not belive that 30 years later I will be flying a glider with a
noisy engine on my back and that - most terrible of all - there will be
a slight smell of gasoline in the cockpit. At that time it was quite
common to make 2 outlandings on teh same day.

SSG/SLG is a good thing for those of us that wants to glide more because
now we can afford it.

Certainly pure gliders is certainly not on the brink of extinction! But
for some of us fortunate guys who can afford it, today we have SSG and
SLG to make life easier.

Robert
ASW28-18E RD
ASH 26E JA
(and former owner of a Jantar Std, ASW 19B and a beautiful Glasflügel 304)




Dan Silent skrev:
the trend is............MOTORGLIDERS

out of 100 ASG29 delivered 60 are motorgliders
90 pct of DG built are motorgliders
HPH Ltd will sell jets gliders to every lawyer and dentist!
Schempp-Hirth is doing nothing.....
Rolladen-Schneider out of business!
Lots of Sinuses, Tauruses, Apises all motorgliders.......
nothing else relevant worldwide!!!

ARE PURE GLIDERS ON THE BRINK OF EXTINCTION?

Daniel Scopel
Silent 2 Targa
C-GODY serial 2027
Volez souvent et soyez prudent.
http://pages. videotron. com/dscopel/

On Oct 19, 2:17*pm, Robert Danewid
wrote:
Since two years I own an ASW 28-18E and since May I have a share in an
ASH 26E.

My experience is that I get more pure gliding hours today than I did 2
years ago when I was flying my good old H304 (which I flew for 20 years).

If you can afford it, SSG/SLG will certainly give you more pure gliding
hours than a pure glider.

"Cheating"? Certainly, but it comes with age I think. When I was 20 I
could not belive that 30 years later I will be flying a glider with a
noisy engine on my back and that - most terrible of all - there will *be
a slight smell of gasoline in the cockpit. At that time it was quite
common to make 2 outlandings on teh same day.

SSG/SLG is a good thing for those of us that wants to glide more because
now we can afford it.

Certainly pure gliders is certainly not on the brink of extinction! But
for some of us fortunate guys who can afford it, today we have SSG and
SLG to make life easier.

Robert
ASW28-18E *RD
ASH 26E JA
(and former owner of a Jantar Std, ASW 19B and a beautiful Glasflügel 304)

Dan Silent skrev:



the trend is............MOTORGLIDERS

out of 100 ASG29 delivered 60 are motorgliders
90 pct of DG built are motorgliders
HPH Ltd will sell jets gliders to every lawyer and dentist!
Schempp-Hirth is doing nothing.....
Rolladen-Schneider out of business!
Lots of Sinuses, Tauruses, Apises all motorgliders.......
nothing else relevant worldwide!!!

ARE PURE GLIDERS ON THE BRINK OF EXTINCTION?

Daniel Scopel
Silent 2 Targa
C-GODY serial 2027
Volez souvent et soyez prudent.
http://pages. videotron. com/dscopel/- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If I travel to the nearest gliderport it is 2+ hours in each direction
if I launch out of the local airport with my motor glider it is a 15
minute trip. If I am flying cross country with no crew (norm for me)
I can afford to go farther with a greater chance of getting home. A
motor glider is a wonderful thing if you can afford it. Still my hat
is off to the pure glider pilots who make great flights using only
mother nature.

On Oct 19, 2:17*pm, Robert Danewid
wrote:
Since two years I own an ASW 28-18E and since May I have a share in an
ASH 26E.

My experience is that I get more pure gliding hours today than I did 2
years ago when I was flying my good old H304 (which I flew for 20 years).

If you can afford it, SSG/SLG will certainly give you more pure gliding
hours than a pure glider.

"Cheating"? Certainly, but it comes with age I think. When I was 20 I
could not belive that 30 years later I will be flying a glider with a
noisy engine on my back and that - most terrible of all - there will *be
a slight smell of gasoline in the cockpit. At that time it was quite
common to make 2 outlandings on teh same day.

SSG/SLG is a good thing for those of us that wants to glide more because
now we can afford it.

Certainly pure gliders is certainly not on the brink of extinction! But
for some of us fortunate guys who can afford it, today we have SSG and
SLG to make life easier.

Robert
ASW28-18E *RD
ASH 26E JA
(and former owner of a Jantar Std, ASW 19B and a beautiful Glasflügel 304)

Dan Silent skrev:



the trend is............MOTORGLIDERS

out of 100 ASG29 delivered 60 are motorgliders
90 pct of DG built are motorgliders
HPH Ltd will sell jets gliders to every lawyer and dentist!
Schempp-Hirth is doing nothing.....
Rolladen-Schneider out of business!
Lots of Sinuses, Tauruses, Apises all motorgliders.......
nothing else relevant worldwide!!!

ARE PURE GLIDERS ON THE BRINK OF EXTINCTION?

Daniel Scopel
Silent 2 Targa
C-GODY serial 2027
Volez souvent et soyez prudent.
http://pages. videotron. com/dscopel/- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Fortunately I can't afford a new glider of any kind, so I'm spared the
anguish of searching for a new 'pure' glider. I'll have to continue
enduring the 100+ hours a year I soar with my 30 year old Speed
Astir. Damn the luck.

"Robert Danewid" wrote in message
...

"Cheating"? Certainly, but it comes with age I think. When I was 20 I
could not belive that 30 years later I will be flying a glider with a
noisy engine on my back and that - most terrible of all - there will be a
slight smell of gasoline in the cockpit. At that time it was quite common
to make 2 outlandings on teh same day.


Robert
ASW28-18E RD
ASH 26E JA
(and former owner of a Jantar Std, ASW 19B and a beautiful Glasflügel 304)




Cheating?

After careful observation, I've determined that all 100% of successful
raptors are of the self-launch variety. Many of them will also revert to
motoring home in a pinch.

What could be more natural than a SLG? "Pure" gliders are disabled.

bumper
ASH26E
Quiet Vent and MKII "high tech" yaw string"

Bumper says "Pure" gliders are disabled."

I would concur, but the disability has little to do with the motor and
much to do with the pilot(s) of said machines