New Pilot Advice

Your instructor was not doing his job in the best manner possible. No
harm in flying in conditions way above the student's head but an
introduction to the "wild side" must stay within the student's comfort
zone as this is the only condition in which learning can occur. He
"owed" you a pre-briefing as to what you should expect in this
environment, and an explicit discussion about terminating the flight
should you feel the need.

It is the instructor's duty to discern the student's emotional
condition, abilities, and experience levels and ensure that he is able
to learn. Note that your education is only goal of the flight! The
instructor's natural desire to have fun in the ripping conditions is
unimportant and in this case, counterproductive to your progress. I
would submit that the instructor failed his duties in this particular
instance in not recognizing your emotional state and by not being
proactive in ensuring your mental/emotional comfort. The CFI whose
student became airsick really blew it. In both instances, the student
learned "negative lessons" - that flying makes them afraid and/or
airsick. As you have already recognized, these are steps backward in
learning to fly.

Fear is a common and reasonable behavior when confronted by
circumstances beyond your control and experience. Acknowledge that
fact and move on. As part of that analysis, I would seriously evaluate
the instructors available to you and select one based on their
commitment to your needs as a student needs and their obligations as a
teacher.

On Nov 10, 8:12*pm, wrote:
On Nov 10, 10:33*pm, wrote:



I just want to add my 2 cents worth. I agree with everything that has
been said here. You have the right to say "knock it off" at anytime. I
don't know how much flying you've done but don't be concerned if the
instructor takes the controls. He's/She's there to help you. If the
rough air bothers you right now, ask your instructor for a few flights
in calmer air to get your confidence back, then proceed at your pace.

I'm a relatively new pilot myself. I started 2 1/2 years ago and got
my ticket last December. It was a bumpy ride (so to speak), with ups,
downs, and plateaus. There were times that I also questioned whether I
was doing the right thing, especially when one instructor made me sick
on a hot day doing steep turns trying to stay up. But now I'm on my
own and flying a Pik-20. Recently I had a four hour flight. I didn't
think it was ever going to happen, and man it felt good. All the tough
times are worth going through.

Hang in there my friend. What you are going through is NORMAL. Just
remember to learn from every flight.

Warren Evans

thanks to all that posted I'm certainly not giving up. My fear you see
was an unexpected new reaction. I've ripped down a mountain on a
mountain bike, windsurfed in some foolish conditions, hiked through
some dangerous moutains in Colombia (people issues mostly) but this
glider business is new. That flight was my 11th flight in a glider. I
have been in airplanes since I was 6 months old, never had a problem
with them. But on the other had I have never been a pilot either. I
was very disappointed in my reaction. Those thermals were ripping. At
least that part was fun.

Sounds like you got into a deeper part of the pool than you were
accustomed to. Not a problem - it's part of learning. Do a de-brief
with your instructor. Every training program includes recovery from
unusual attitudes - but not at flight #11 generally. You will need to
come back to the situations you experienced eventually before you solo
- by then you will have practiced and will know how to deal with them
with confidence, I'm sure.

Hopefully all the words here have encouraged you to not fret too much.
But, as has been said by another poster, your training is a matter
solely between you and your instructor.

Nine Bravo

We tend to forget the extreme nature of what we do after a while.
In this instance the instructor probably was at fault in not making sure
you understood the implications of the conditions. Which were probably
strong but not extreme.

There is a little mnemonic that goes - Aviate-Navigate-Communicate

The decode is -
Aviate - First fly the aircraft, and in this case the instructor is
there to take over when things get rough. His/her backside is also on
the line, but that does not necessarily mean he/she has the same
tolerance for risk as you.

Navigate - On tow, this is pretty much IFR -( I Follow the Rope) but in
turbulent conditions you need to anticipate based on what the tug
experiences. Your wing loading is much lower - whatever the tug does,
you will do more of. Best to plan where you are going.

Communicate - If the instructor failed to communicate what the
experience would likely be, or for whatever reason you are not confident
(note - I did not say comfortable, because a lot of learning comes from
discomfort) then say something. He/she should be able to read the stress
in your body language and flying, but glider pilots are not renowned
for their social skills.


If it is any consolation even the best sometimes have to abandon a tow
because of a getting out of position. One excellent thing to learn from
these conditions (because the signals are so strong) is that your glider
will experience what the tug experiences , a couple of seconds later. So
when you see the tug climbing like a homesick angel, get ready for the
thermal to hit. If he has full left aileron in, and is failing to turn,
best anticipate a little. Your roll rate/control authority will be less
than his.

Handled correctly (right attitude from both instructor and student) -
flying in conditions that stretch your experience can/should be a great
learning experience.


wrote:
I thought I had taken up this hobby with a lot of enthusiasm until
last weekend. Prior to last weekend I thought I was making steady
progress, taking off landing, developing some touch on the stick. When
I go the field I approach the flight with butterflies and some fear. I
was told by an instuctor this is good when you lose those butterflies
don't fly. Last weekend conditions were deceptive. Relatively windy on
the ground 10-15 knots but apparently much tougher high up (according
to the crusty old tow pilot). We took off with me at the contols and
everything was fine until about 300 feet and something hit that 2
seater from the side and we flew into the air above and to right of
the tow plane, the instructor took over and we proceeded up to about
1000 feet and I took over again until about 2000 feet where the tow
plane hit a sink and dropped like a stone (I've dealt with this before
but not to this extreme) I was not fast enough and the instuctor took
over again. By this time I was really frightened and my confidence was
destroyed. I did manage to take the plane over and get a clean release
at 3000.

We then proceeded to hit some incredible thermals and my instuctor
intorduced me to the fine art of climbing a thermal with other gliders
in it. The thermals were pretty rough and the vario was pegged at
times. He had me doing tight turns until I started getting air sick
(this had only happened on one previous flight). We continued to ride
the thermals until I told the instuctor we better go down. I tried to
hold on I know he wanted to stay up.

When we got down on the ground I did not want the instuctor to notice
but my knees were shaking. I do not scare easily, I have had a lot of
other hobbies where danger is involved. My question to you experienced
pilots is this fear normal? I was really frightened. If you knew me
I'd never admit it to you. Is this something you can get over? This
experience left me wondering is this hobby for me?

BTW when we got down they were cleaning out another 2 seater where a
student threw up (he was up for about 20mins), at least I stayed up
for 45 mins and did not throw up. At least I got some satisfaction.
Thanks

On Nov 11, 12:18*am, wrote:
I thought I had taken up this hobby with a lot of enthusiasm until
last weekend. Prior to last weekend I thought I was making steady
progress, taking off landing, developing some touch on the stick. When
I go the field I approach the flight with butterflies and some fear. I
was told by an instuctor this is good when you lose those butterflies
don't fly. Last weekend conditions were deceptive. Relatively windy on
the ground 10-15 knots but apparently much tougher high up (according
to the crusty old tow pilot). We took off with me at the contols and
everything was fine until about 300 feet and something hit that 2
seater from the side and we flew into the air above and to right of
the tow plane, the instructor took over and we proceeded up to about
1000 feet and I took over again until about 2000 feet where the tow
plane hit a sink and dropped like a stone (I've dealt with this before
but not to this extreme) I was not fast enough and the instuctor took
over again. By this time I was really frightened and my confidence was
destroyed. I did manage to take the plane over and get a clean release
at 3000.

We then proceeded to hit some incredible thermals and my instuctor
intorduced me to the fine art of climbing a thermal with other gliders
in it. The thermals were pretty rough and the vario was pegged at
times. He had me doing tight turns until I started getting air sick
(this had only happened on one previous flight). We continued to ride
the thermals until I told the instuctor we better go down. I tried to
hold on I know he wanted to stay up.

When we got down on the ground I did not want the instuctor to notice
but my knees were shaking. I do not scare easily, I have had a lot of
other hobbies where danger is involved. My question to you experienced
pilots is this fear normal? I was really frightened. If you knew me
I'd never admit it to you. Is this something you can get over? This
experience left me wondering is this hobby for me?

BTW when we got down they were cleaning out another 2 seater where a
student threw up (he was up for about 20mins), at least I stayed up
for 45 mins and did not throw up. At least I got some satisfaction.
Thanks

Lots and lots of good advice. My 1c is that learning to fly was a
series of luches for me - forward progress one week, backward another
and I think that's pretty normal as well. Increases & decreases in
confidence went with it. I have my Silver C now and my own glider,
and I still have the pre-flight butterflies and doubt they will ever
really go away.

But don't hide your reaction to the flight from your instructor -
discuss it. Debrief not just your flying but your emotional reaction
to it as well.

BTW I am deeply jealous of you having thermals in mid-November. Here
we are hoping for the odd flyable day with wave, and they don't come
along very often.

On Nov 11, 4:12*am, wrote:
thanks to all that posted I'm certainly not giving up. My fear you see
was an unexpected new reaction. I've ripped down a mountain on a
mountain bike, windsurfed in some foolish conditions, hiked through
some dangerous moutains in Colombia (people issues mostly) but this
glider business is new. That flight was my 11th flight in a glider. I
have been in airplanes since I was 6 months old, never had a problem
with them. But on the other had I have never been a pilot either. I
was very disappointed in my reaction. Those thermals were ripping. At
least that part was fun.

Glad to hear you're not giving up.

Fear is a normal experience, and shouldn't be suppressed completely.
While learning, you have a guardian angel behind you, and their neck
is on the line too. They are there to dig you out of a (metaphorical!)
hole.

As you progress they will start to put you in unexpected "now get out
of that" situations, e.g. while making a normal approach, one
instructor
took over, dived towards the launch point, pulled up when almost over
it and calmly said "you have control". And of course you'll never
forget
your first spin, nor your first spin starting at ~100ft

Of course, if you don't have confidence in your instructor's ability,
find
another instructor. OTOH, if you don't have confidence in your own
ability while learning, then "welcome to the club".

It is always fun to watch instructors being tested - the examining
instructor typically plays the part of a *subtly* incompetent pupil,
and
checks that the instructor-under-test gives the pupil enough room but
not a dangerous amount of room. The resulting approaches and landings
can be fun and instructive to watch.

Finally, my apologies if my first reply was too brusque.

wrote in message
...
I thought I had taken up this hobby with a lot of enthusiasm until
last weekend. Prior to last weekend I thought I was making steady
progress, taking off landing, developing some touch on the stick. When
I go the field I approach the flight with butterflies and some fear. I
was told by an instuctor this is good when you lose those butterflies
don't fly. Last weekend conditions were deceptive. Relatively windy on
the ground 10-15 knots but apparently much tougher high up (according
to the crusty old tow pilot). We took off with me at the contols and
everything was fine until about 300 feet and something hit that 2
seater from the side and we flew into the air above and to right of
the tow plane, the instructor took over and we proceeded up to about
1000 feet and I took over again until about 2000 feet where the tow
plane hit a sink and dropped like a stone (I've dealt with this before
but not to this extreme) I was not fast enough and the instuctor took
over again. By this time I was really frightened and my confidence was
destroyed. I did manage to take the plane over and get a clean release
at 3000.

We then proceeded to hit some incredible thermals and my instuctor
intorduced me to the fine art of climbing a thermal with other gliders
in it. The thermals were pretty rough and the vario was pegged at
times. He had me doing tight turns until I started getting air sick
(this had only happened on one previous flight). We continued to ride
the thermals until I told the instuctor we better go down. I tried to
hold on I know he wanted to stay up.

When we got down on the ground I did not want the instuctor to notice
but my knees were shaking. I do not scare easily, I have had a lot of
other hobbies where danger is involved. My question to you experienced
pilots is this fear normal? I was really frightened. If you knew me
I'd never admit it to you. Is this something you can get over? This
experience left me wondering is this hobby for me?

BTW when we got down they were cleaning out another 2 seater where a
student threw up (he was up for about 20mins), at least I stayed up
for 45 mins and did not throw up. At least I got some satisfaction.
Thanks

Good advice all, but-----
They have tiptoed around the real answer.
You are, by your own claim, a person who enjoys motion sports and adrenalin
infusion. Were you comfortable immediately the first time you rode a
mountain bike? Did you "rip down the mountain" on that ride? I'd guess not.

The real questions are--Was the instructor frightened, did s/he consider it
fairly routine? Were other experienced pilots that day having fun? If so,
then you will too, eventually. As you become accustomed to the sensations,
and your reactions become faster and more subtle through experience, you
will bcome less and less anxious. Eventually you will enjoy the sensations.

I, too, experienced the same, but after the first couple of hundred flights,
it became routine. Now 1300 launches later, each flight is still special.

Hang in there---it won't be long before you find mountain biking boring and
soaring will occupy all your free thoughts.

Hartley Falbaum, CFIG, USA

On 11 Nov, 00:18, wrote:

When we got down on the ground I did not want the instuctor to notice
but my knees were shaking. I do not scare easily, I have had a lot of
other hobbies where danger is involved. My question to you experienced
pilots is this fear normal? I was really frightened. If you knew me
I'd never admit it to you. Is this something you can get over? This
experience left me wondering is this hobby for me?

It sounds to me as if you were taken up on a rough and unpleasant day
and asked to do things way byond your current skill level - wild
aerotow, sharing a thermal, tight enough turns to make you sick and so
on.

Of coure you were scared. Anybody sensible would be scared in the
circumstances, so it is NOT a fault on your part.

It does, however, sound like a sequence of faults on your instructor's
part. It sound as if you had the misfortune to have a macho fool
behind you who wanted to show off
and either couldn't care less or, more likely, revelled in the effect
he was producing.

If you have an irrational fear of flight but want to glide you will be
able to do it, but it will take time. If you have an entirely rational
fear of situations beyond your ability, treasure it. The accident
statistics are full of people who should have felt fear but didn't.

What to do now? Well, first of all, get another instructor. Don't
waste any time with the last one - his aviation judgement is proven
bad. Explain that you were taken up on a really wild day and got
frightened. Any decent instructor will sympathise and work with you on
a plan to rebuild your confidence.

Goodluck,

Ian

On 11 Nov, 05:47, wrote:

But, as has been said by another poster, your training is a matter
solely between you and your instructor.

I disagree. If the instructor is incompetent - and this one sounds
rotten - then the pupil should tke the initiative and get another one.
If it was a UK gliding club I'd hope the OP would discuss the
situation rankly with his CFI (Chief Flying Instructor) and that the
CFI would have the sense to deal with the instructor.

Ian

On 11 Nov, 05:10, " wrote:
Your instructor was not doing his job in the best manner possible. No
harm in flying in conditions way above the student's head but an
introduction to the "wild side" must stay within the student's comfort
zone as this is the only condition in which learning can occur. He
"owed" you a pre-briefing as to what you should expect in this
environment, and an explicit discussion about terminating the flight
should you feel the need.

It is the instructor's duty to discern the student's emotional
condition, abilities, and experience levels and ensure that he is able
to learn. Note that your education is only goal of the flight! The
instructor's natural desire to have fun in the ripping conditions is
unimportant and in this case, counterproductive to your progress. I
would submit that the instructor failed his duties in this particular
instance in not recognizing your emotional state and by not being
proactive in ensuring your mental/emotional comfort. The CFI whose
student became airsick really blew it. In both instances, the student
learned "negative lessons" - that flying makes them afraid and/or
airsick. As you have already recognized, these are steps backward in
learning to fly.

Fear is a common and reasonable behavior when confronted by
circumstances beyond your control and experience. Acknowledge that
fact and move on. As part of that analysis, I would seriously evaluate
the instructors available to you and select one based on their
commitment to your needs as a student needs and their obligations as a
teacher.

Very well put, sir.

Ian

On Nov 11, 4:24*pm, Ian wrote:
On 11 Nov, 05:47, wrote:

But, as has been said by another poster, your training is a matter
solely between you and your instructor.

I disagree. If the instructor is incompetent - and this one sounds
rotten - then the pupil should tke the initiative and get another one.
If it was a UK gliding club I'd hope the OP would discuss the
situation rankly with his CFI (Chief Flying Instructor) and that the
CFI would have the sense to deal with the instructor.

Let's hope the OP wasn't flying *with* the CFI! However it is very
true that not all instructors work for all students, and also that who
does and doesn't work changes as time & experience change - both the
instructors and the students.

And in the future, remember that 1) it's much, much, much better to be
on the ground wishing you were in the air than the other way round.
Especially once you are flying solo... Therefore, 2) never stay in
the air just because you *think* the instructor wants to. If you
discuss it and they actually do want you to stay up, ask why and if
you are not happy with the answer insist on going back down.