Plane Accidentally Starts Moving With 6-Year-Old Inside

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
...
On Dec 29, 9:48 pm, "BT" wrote:
It may have been an "accident" when the unpiloted aircraft hit the trees.
But it the airplane did not accidentally start moving.. that would be
negligence on the grandfathers part

Wouldn't that still be an accident? Are you suggesting that if the
plane was not tied down it was a "on purpose"?

If one does not follow known procedure and safety guidelines and causes
injury.
Is it an accident that you did not do as instructed?
Or is it negligence.

"BT" wrote in message
...
Is it an accident that you did not do as instructed?
Or is it negligence.

The two are not mutually exclusive, so your answer is "both". We are all
capable of doing dumb things. (though some of us may be more capable than
others)

Vaughn

"vaughn" wrote in message
...

"BT" wrote in message
...
Is it an accident that you did not do as instructed?
Or is it negligence.

The two are not mutually exclusive, so your answer is "both". We are
all capable of doing dumb things. (though some of us may be more capable
than others)

Vaughn

True, although the point that has been missed in this discussion, on at
least two newsgroups, is the maintenance issue--especially with respect to
the breaker points in the magnetos.

When the breaker points, a/k/a e-gap, are not correctly set, there will
usually be insufficient spark to easily start the engine be hand propping.
When that problem occurs, it is discuoragingly common to experiment a little
in an effort to get the engine started. Also, most people are unaware of
how much thrust the engine can develop--the old rule of thumb is about one
fifth of the certificated gross weight of the aircraft and most production
aircraft with fixed pitch props come very close to that number. That means
many of the tie down ropes and anchors, especially the temporary varieties,
are little more trustworthy than chocks for the purpose.

I have heard a couple of very amusing old stories in which the aircarft
supposedly flew after "getting loose" when hand propped. In both of the
most entertaining cases, the aircraft eventually landed safety. In one
case, the pilot hand propped an Ercoupe and the pilots wife, who was a
frequent passenger but not a pilot, was in the aircraft and "stepped up" as
a pinch hitter--successfully landing rather firmly but without damage after
a couple of missed approaches. In the other case, the pilot's young son,
aged around 6 years, was in the aircraft and sinply waited untill the
aircraft landed itself due to fuel exhaustion--although I personally
susspect that the kid may have also "stepped up" and influenced the landing
site to favaor an especially flat and open area. In both cases, the
throttles had supposedly been advanced to facilitate a difficult start, and
the engines supposedly commenced to operate at about 1800 RPM.

Therefore, IMHO, proper maintenance of magnetos would be at least as
effective a solution as any other!

Peter

A SAFE, HEALTHY, AND PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR TO ALL !!!!

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
...
On Dec 29, 9:48 pm, "BT" wrote:
It may have been an "accident" when the unpiloted aircraft hit the
trees.
But it the airplane did not accidentally start moving.. that would be
negligence on the grandfathers part

Wouldn't that still be an accident? Are you suggesting that if the
plane was not tied down it was a "on purpose"?

In anycase, its not always practical to tie down the tail (especially
in areas without tiedown). I had 3 ways to secure the Aeronca and J-3.
Brakes, chock, tail tiedown. I would always use 2 of those 3. Many,
many times I started the plane when no tie down was available but then
I would use a chock and the aircraft brake (which was marginal). One
thing that "electric" pilots do not realize is that its very, very
hard to guess how much power the engine will develop when it first
starts. Sometimes it will just be idling, other times it will start
with a big roar. Once you've started the plane you can walk around,
put it in a low idle, and then unsecure the airplane.

-Robert

Back in the mid 70's I witnessed brake failure on a Luscombe during
rollout of a landing. The airplane ground looped and went into a fence.
The FAA inspector classified it as an incident. He said that incidents
did not result in injuries requiring hospital treatment. Accidents did
require hospital treatment. I don't know if that was his own policy or
the FAA's at the time.

--
Anyolmouse

"Anyolmouse" wrote in message
...

Back in the mid 70's I witnessed brake failure on a Luscombe during
rollout of a landing. The airplane ground looped and went into a fence.
The FAA inspector classified it as an incident. He said that incidents
did not result in injuries requiring hospital treatment. Accidents did
require hospital treatment. I don't know if that was his own policy or
the FAA's at the time.

See FARs Part 830.2 (definitions)

Vaughn

"vaughn" wrote in message
...
|
| "Anyolmouse" wrote in message
| ...
|
| Back in the mid 70's I witnessed brake failure on a Luscombe during
| rollout of a landing. The airplane ground looped and went into a
fence.
| The FAA inspector classified it as an incident. He said that
incidents
| did not result in injuries requiring hospital treatment. Accidents
did
| require hospital treatment. I don't know if that was his own policy
or
| the FAA's at the time.
|
| See FARs Part 830.2 (definitions)
|
| Vaughn


I did so. Thanks-

--
Anyolmouse

"Anyolmouse" wrote in message
...
|
| "Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
|
...
| On Dec 29, 9:48 pm, "BT" wrote:
| It may have been an "accident" when the unpiloted aircraft hit the
| trees.
| But it the airplane did not accidentally start moving.. that would
be
| negligence on the grandfathers part
|
| Wouldn't that still be an accident? Are you suggesting that if the
| plane was not tied down it was a "on purpose"?
|
| In anycase, its not always practical to tie down the tail (especially
| in areas without tiedown). I had 3 ways to secure the Aeronca and J-3.
| Brakes, chock, tail tiedown. I would always use 2 of those 3. Many,
| many times I started the plane when no tie down was available but then
| I would use a chock and the aircraft brake (which was marginal). One
| thing that "electric" pilots do not realize is that its very, very
| hard to guess how much power the engine will develop when it first
| starts. Sometimes it will just be idling, other times it will start
| with a big roar. Once you've started the plane you can walk around,
| put it in a low idle, and then unsecure the airplane.
|
| -Robert
|
| Back in the mid 70's I witnessed brake failure on a Luscombe during
| rollout of a landing. The airplane ground looped and went into a
fence.
| The FAA inspector classified it as an incident. He said that incidents
| did not result in injuries requiring hospital treatment. Accidents did
| require hospital treatment. I don't know if that was his own policy or
| the FAA's at the time.
|
| --
| Anyolmouse
|

Here is the definition taken from:
http://www.nolan-law.com/practice-ar...ghts/#Incident

An aviation accident is the most serious and may be defined as such if
at least one person is killed or hospitalized for longer than 24 hours
and/or the aircraft is destroyed or substantially damaged. Thus, it is
possible to have an aviation accident in which no people are seriously
injured but the aircraft is lost as was the case early in 2008 with the
loss of a British Airways B777 at Heathrow Airport. Also meeting the
test of an aviation accident was the 1997 loss of a TWA B747 flying out
of New York when a fuel tank exploded and all 230 persons aboard were
killed and the aircraft was destroyed.

I guess negligence could come into play either for accidents or
incidents.

--
Anyolmouse

On Dec 30 2008, 12:48*am, "BT" wrote:
And for Monk.. why do people have to keep positing things that are in the
news, on the news services, on the electronic emails such as AvWeb or
ePilot.

BT

And for BT... why do people have to keep asking questions and not use
a question mark? g

Monk

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:40:12 -0800 (PST), Monk
wrote:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473498,00.html

PALESTINE, Texas — Federal investigators are looking into an accident
involving a small plane at an eastern Texas airfield that injured a 6-
year-old girl.

Palestine fire officials said the girl was alone in the Cessna 150
when her 81-year-old grandfather, Virgil Fielden of Fairfield,
manually started the engine of the two-seat plane Sunday afternoon.

Fire Capt. Kyle Betterton says the plane began rolling unexpectedly
and crashed into nearby woods. He says it never left the grounds of
Palestine Municipal Airport.

Betterton says the girl wasn't seriously injured but was airlifted to
Children's Medical Center in Dallas as a precaution. Fielden was
treated for minor injuries at a Palestine hospital.

Palestine is about 100 miles southeast of Dallas.


--------------------

A grandpa trying to share some good memory with his granddaughter. He
should have asked for help in getting the plane started. His heart
was ni the right place. Glad no one was hurt.

Monk

his heart wasnt in the right place.
if the battery was stuffed he should have replaced it.
this accident happened a long time before the day of the crash.

I've replaced my battery twice in the last ten years to avoid just
this sort of accident.
Stealth Pilot

On Dec 30, 5:45*am, Stealth Pilot
wrote:
On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:40:12 -0800 (PST), Monk
wrote:





http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473498,00.html

PALESTINE, Texas — *Federal investigators are looking into an accident
involving a small plane at an eastern Texas airfield that injured a 6-
year-old girl.

Palestine fire officials said the girl was alone in the Cessna 150
when her 81-year-old grandfather, Virgil Fielden of Fairfield,
manually started the engine of the two-seat plane Sunday afternoon.

Fire Capt. Kyle Betterton says the plane began rolling unexpectedly
and crashed into nearby woods. He says it never left the grounds of
Palestine Municipal Airport.

Betterton says the girl wasn't seriously injured but was airlifted to
Children's Medical Center in Dallas as a precaution. Fielden was
treated for minor injuries at a Palestine hospital.

Palestine is about 100 miles southeast of Dallas.

--------------------

A grandpa trying to share some good memory with his granddaughter. *He
should have asked for help in getting the plane started. *His heart
was ni the right place. Glad no one was hurt.

Monk

his heart wasnt in the right place.
if the battery was stuffed he should have replaced it.
this accident happened a long time before the day of the crash.

I've replaced my battery twice in the last ten years to avoid just
this sort of accident.
Stealth Pilot- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

how about this as the first item on the hand prop check list.

TIE DOWN THE TAIL!