Allied Air launched rockets of ww2

"Taki Kogoma" wrote in message
...
On 1 Jun 2004 15:21:56 +0100, (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN)
allegedly declared to rec.aviation.military...
In article ,
Prowlus wrote:
Does anyone know why the allies didn't consider using their air
lauched rockets as air-to-air weapons during the war when the jets
started appearing? I thought it would have been a good idea to ward
off any attack from ME-262s or me-163s which were too fast to attack
with guns.

The VVS was using air-air rockets against the Japanese over Manchuria
in 1938 or so. They made quite extensive use of them in the early
part of the war against Germany (before giving them up as ineffective,
iSTR).

Compared with the allies (well, the Russians) the germans were very slow
in trying air-to-air rockets.

And the nature of the intended targets (relatively large and slow
bomber formations rather than small, fast, and nimble fighters, jabos,
etc.)
made the german AA rocket a viable option at that point in the war.

The Luftwaffe did of course use AA rockets against US and UK bombers in
thelatter stages of the war. The Me-262 was certainly equipped to fire them.

John

"John Mullen" wrote in message ...
"Taki Kogoma" wrote in message
...
On 1 Jun 2004 15:21:56 +0100, (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN)
allegedly declared to rec.aviation.military...
In article ,
Prowlus wrote:
Does anyone know why the allies didn't consider using their air
lauched rockets as air-to-air weapons during the war when the jets
started appearing? I thought it would have been a good idea to ward
off any attack from ME-262s or me-163s which were too fast to attack
with guns.

The VVS was using air-air rockets against the Japanese over Manchuria
in 1938 or so. They made quite extensive use of them in the early
part of the war against Germany (before giving them up as ineffective,
iSTR).

Compared with the allies (well, the Russians) the germans were very slow
in trying air-to-air rockets.

And the nature of the intended targets (relatively large and slow
bomber formations rather than small, fast, and nimble fighters, jabos,
etc.)
made the german AA rocket a viable option at that point in the war.

The Luftwaffe did of course use AA rockets against US and UK bombers in
thelatter stages of the war. The Me-262 was certainly equipped to fire them.

John

They, the 55mm R4M were excedingly effective. 1 in 24 hit and
destroyed its target and as an Me 262 carried 24 of them they had a
success rate of almost 100% when using this weapon.

The Me 262 had a EZ 42 computing gyro gun sight, and some I believe
received the FuG 244 ranging radar that could via the "Elfe" computer
inject the firing solution into the gun sight for the cannon and I
believe unguided R4M 55mm
misiles as well though I'm not sure if the FuG 244/Elfe combo was ever
used in combat.

Clearly a stream of such missiles if competently aimed would be
effective against large bombers. I suspect post war versions of such
missiles could have been fitted with proximity fuses.

They Germans also had a larger missile under developement that had a
shaped charge that scattered a forward focused fragmentation charge
that was activated by a timer fuse set be Elfe.

The timer activated 21cm Wgr 21 rockets that was launched in pairs
from FW190s and Me109s were very effective untill escorts began
harrasing the heavily laden aircraft.

They, the 55mm R4M were excedingly effective. 1 in 24 hit and
destroyed its target and as an Me 262 carried 24 of them they had a
success rate of almost 100% when using this weapon.

Not quite. There was no onboard ranging system so manually computing 800 yards
was a tough thing to do with closure speeds anywhere from 300-500 MPH. I have
interviewed several JG 7 pilots and two JV 44 guys - although they were MIGHTY
happy with the R4M, it was no magic bullet. Remember that very very few Me
262s even had the rails for rockets.

The Me 262 had a EZ 42 computing gyro gun sight,

About 20% of them did, and that includes some of the KG 51 bomber variants.
Most Me 262 pilots never saw an EZ 42; some that did insisted the gyro be
locked as it was too radical a departure from their earlier method of gunnery.

and some I believe
received the FuG 244 ranging radar that could via the "Elfe" computer
inject the firing solution into the gun sight for the cannon and I
believe unguided R4M 55mm
misiles as well though I'm not sure if the FuG 244/Elfe combo was ever
used in combat.

It was not.

Clearly a stream of such missiles if competently aimed would be
effective against large bombers. I suspect post war versions of such
missiles could have been fitted with proximity fuses.

The R4M was intended as a cheap shotgun and was about as simple as a rocket
could be. Fitting it with prox fuses would have greatly improved it.

They Germans also had a larger missile under developement that had a
shaped charge that scattered a forward focused fragmentation charge
that was activated by a timer fuse set be Elfe.

The X-4 can be properly seen as the grandfather of modern Air to Air missiles.
As usual, the LW waited too long...

The timer activated 21cm Wgr 21 rockets that was launched in pairs
from FW190s and Me109s were very effective untill escorts began
harrasing the heavily laden aircraft.

That was almost immediately after they were placed into service. LW pilots
*detested* the Wgr 21s as overweight, parabolic albatrosses hanging from their
necks. One Gruppenkommandeur was ordered to evaluate these rockets in combat -
he refused to order anyone else in his unit to use them after it was clear that
the added weight would make the shooting platform a sitting duck. Major Klaus
Haberlen then flew the mission himself, and nearly died in the failed attempt
to bring down a bomber with them. Filing his report with OKdLW, the GruppeKdr
failed to realize that the Wgr 21 was *supposed* to work; Goering found out
that Haberlen "dissed" the weapon system and had him sacked on the spot, then
ordered his replacement to carry on with the near-suicidal missions. Popular,
the Wgr 21 was not.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

An LZ is a place you want to land, not stay.

The Germans did use rockets against Allied bombers. They put launch tubes in
the wings of FW-190s with the tubes set at about an 80 degree angle to the
wing cord.

The idea was to fly under a bomber and fire the rockets into it's
underbelly. You could detonate the bomb load, destroy the bomber, and have
the whole mess falling on you quicker than it even takes to describe.

WDA

end

"Prowlus" wrote in message
om...
Does anyone know why the allies didn't consider using their air
lauched rockets as air-to-air weapons during the war when the jets
started appearing? I thought it would have been a good idea to ward
off any attack from ME-262s or me-163s which were too fast to attack
with guns.