Flarm in the US this summer

An ADS-B transceiver will not necessarily require any panel space. It is a
black box with a GPS antenna, a radio antenna, and an interface to your GPS
/ Flight Computer. All of the traffic information is displayed on whatever
navigation device that you already have in your glider.

Once the ADS-B ground station rollout is complete (which should occur ~
2013), an ADS-B transceiver will see all Mode C transponder equipped
traffic, so a transponder mode will not be necessary. The only gottcha is
that ADS-B equipped aircraft will not be visible to TCAS unless they also
have Mode C/S transponders.

Mike Schumann

"jcarlyle" wrote in message
...
Given where I fly and my limited panel space, I would only buy a Flarm
if it offered the capabilities of a Zaon MRX as well. Perhaps Flarm
and Zaon should get together and discuss building a single, small
device that detects Flarm mode, A/C/S transponder modes, and ADS-B
mode?

-John

I know, Mike. Three things, though: (1) The ADS-B black box won't
detect Flarm signals, (2) the price of the ADS-B black box currently
ranges between outrageous and highway robbery, and (3) the amperage
requirements of the ADS-B black box is not currently battery friendly.
That's why I say it would be good if Flarm and Zaon got together -
they built small, affordable, battery friendly detection devices.

-John

On Jul 23, 9:26 am, "Mike Schumann" mike-nos...@traditions-
nospam.com wrote:
An ADS-B transceiver will not necessarily require any panel space. It is a
black box with a GPS antenna, a radio antenna, and an interface to your GPS
/ Flight Computer. All of the traffic information is displayed on whatever
navigation device that you already have in your glider.

Once the ADS-B ground station rollout is complete (which should occur ~
2013), an ADS-B transceiver will see all Mode C transponder equipped
traffic, so a transponder mode will not be necessary. The only gottcha is
that ADS-B equipped aircraft will not be visible to TCAS unless they also
have Mode C/S transponders.

Mike Schumann

"jcarlyle" wrote in message

...

Given where I fly and my limited panel space, I would only buy a Flarm
if it offered the capabilities of a Zaon MRX as well. Perhaps Flarm
and Zaon should get together and discuss building a single, small
device that detects Flarm mode, A/C/S transponder modes, and ADS-B
mode?

-John

The only ADS-B UAT box currently on the market is the Garmin unit, which is
10 year old technology. This is clearly not appropriate or cost effective
for gliders.

You need to look at the low cost units that have been developed by MITRE.
The parts cost of their transceiver is ~$400. It's basically the same
hardware as what is in FLARM, but ADS-B compatible. The unit is about the
size of a cigarette pack, and runs for 5-6 hours on a built-in LI-ION
battery. Their ADS-B out only transmitter runs on 4 AA batteries for 24 hrs
and has a parts cost of ~$150. The power consumption of both of these units
is much lower than modern Mode C transponders. The big challenge is to get
these units certified by the FAA so they can be commercialized. I am
confident that this will happen.

As far as FLARM compatibility, in the US this is completely irrelevant.
FLARM does not exist here. I find it highly questionable that anyone who
has looked at this issue closely will make an investment in this technology
here.

Mike Schumann

"jcarlyle" wrote in message
...
I know, Mike. Three things, though: (1) The ADS-B black box won't
detect Flarm signals, (2) the price of the ADS-B black box currently
ranges between outrageous and highway robbery, and (3) the amperage
requirements of the ADS-B black box is not currently battery friendly.
That's why I say it would be good if Flarm and Zaon got together -
they built small, affordable, battery friendly detection devices.

-John

On Jul 23, 9:26 am, "Mike Schumann" mike-nos...@traditions-
nospam.com wrote:
An ADS-B transceiver will not necessarily require any panel space. It is
a
black box with a GPS antenna, a radio antenna, and an interface to your
GPS
/ Flight Computer. All of the traffic information is displayed on
whatever
navigation device that you already have in your glider.

Once the ADS-B ground station rollout is complete (which should occur ~
2013), an ADS-B transceiver will see all Mode C transponder equipped
traffic, so a transponder mode will not be necessary. The only gottcha
is
that ADS-B equipped aircraft will not be visible to TCAS unless they also
have Mode C/S transponders.

Mike Schumann

"jcarlyle" wrote in message

...

Given where I fly and my limited panel space, I would only buy a Flarm
if it offered the capabilities of a Zaon MRX as well. Perhaps Flarm
and Zaon should get together and discuss building a single, small
device that detects Flarm mode, A/C/S transponder modes, and ADS-B
mode?

-John

Good points, John.
But there's a 4th thing. The original post is about this summer, not
2013 or so. The feds are involved in ADS-B, so 2013 is likely a dream
and "outrageous" costs by roll-out time will seem luxurious.
In order to compare what's available, proponents of any systems
please give the cost to get it operational in glider cockpits now, not
in some future time after budget overruns and inevitable delays.
Price (if a transponder is required, include that).
Present availability of the entire system.
Power requirements for the entire system.
Installation process.
Certification process.
There must be other things.
And to compare apples to apples (or is it now macs to macs), if all
aircraft were equipped with similar devices, let's look at the pros
and cons.
Jim

On Jul 23, 7:09*am, jcarlyle wrote:
I know, Mike. Three things, though: *(1) The ADS-B black box won't
detect Flarm signals, (2) the price of the ADS-B black box currently
ranges between outrageous and highway robbery, and (3) the amperage
requirements of the ADS-B black box is not currently battery friendly.
That's why I say it would be good if Flarm and Zaon got together -
they built small, affordable, battery friendly detection devices.

-John

On Jul 23, 9:26 am, "Mike Schumann" mike-nos...@traditions-

nospam.com wrote:
An ADS-B transceiver will not necessarily require any panel space. *It is a
black box with a GPS antenna, a radio antenna, and an interface to your GPS
/ Flight Computer. *All of the traffic information is displayed on whatever
navigation device that you already have in your glider.

Once the ADS-B ground station rollout is complete (which should occur ~
2013), an ADS-B transceiver will see all Mode C transponder equipped
traffic, so a transponder mode will not be necessary. *The only gottcha is
that ADS-B equipped aircraft will not be visible to TCAS unless they also
have Mode C/S transponders.

Mike Schumann

On Jul 23, 9:56*am, JS wrote:
Good points, John.
* But there's a 4th thing. The original post is about this summer, not
2013 or so. The feds are involved in ADS-B, so 2013 is likely a dream
and "outrageous" costs by roll-out time will seem luxurious.
* In order to compare what's available, proponents of any systems
please give the cost to get it operational in glider cockpits now, not
in some future time after budget overruns and inevitable delays.
Price (if a transponder is required, include that).
Present availability of the entire system.
Power requirements for the entire system.
Installation process.
Certification process.
There must be other things.
* And to compare apples to apples (or is it now macs to macs), if all
aircraft were equipped with similar devices, let's look at the pros
and cons.
Jim

On Jul 23, 7:09*am, jcarlyle wrote:



I know, Mike. Three things, though: *(1) The ADS-B black box won't
detect Flarm signals, (2) the price of the ADS-B black box currently
ranges between outrageous and highway robbery, and (3) the amperage
requirements of the ADS-B black box is not currently battery friendly.
That's why I say it would be good if Flarm and Zaon got together -
they built small, affordable, battery friendly detection devices.

-John

On Jul 23, 9:26 am, "Mike Schumann" mike-nos...@traditions-

nospam.com wrote:
An ADS-B transceiver will not necessarily require any panel space. *It is a
black box with a GPS antenna, a radio antenna, and an interface to your GPS
/ Flight Computer. *All of the traffic information is displayed on whatever
navigation device that you already have in your glider.

Once the ADS-B ground station rollout is complete (which should occur ~
2013), an ADS-B transceiver will see all Mode C transponder equipped
traffic, so a transponder mode will not be necessary. *The only gottcha is
that ADS-B equipped aircraft will not be visible to TCAS unless they also
have Mode C/S transponders.

Mike Schumann- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think the discussion was focused too much on Flarm vs transponder/
pcas due to the comment on my original posting suggesting Flarm as an
alternative. I don't think it should be positioned as alternative to
transponders, not in the US. It also shouldn't be considered as
alternative to ADS-B since ADS-B will not be available for at least 5
years, and even then it is not clear how effordable it will be. It
should be considered as an addition and the only available solution
for glider to glider alert for the next 5 years or more. And 5 years
is a life time for many electronic gadgets nowadays anyway.

Ramy

Mike,

At lunch someone made me aware of a $1500 UAT, the ADS600 made by
NavWorx ( http://www.navworx.com/ads600.html ). It's still a current
hog (570 mA) and big (6" x 6" x 2"), and it isn't TSOed, but the price
is getting right.

If I remember correctly, the Mitre unit is still in the demo stage. I
agree that the cost, size and battery friendly nature of Mitre unit
are great, better than the NavWorx.

I also agree that Flarm missed the boat. They worried about the
potential of US lawsuits so long that Zaon and manufacturers of Modes
S transponders with built-in altitude encoders and extended squitters
have made them irrelevant to the US market.

-John

On Jul 23, 12:42 pm, "Mike Schumann" mike-nos...@traditions-
nospam.com wrote:
The only ADS-B UAT box currently on the market is the Garmin unit, which is
10 year old technology. This is clearly not appropriate or cost effective
for gliders.

You need to look at the low cost units that have been developed by MITRE.
The parts cost of their transceiver is ~$400. It's basically the same
hardware as what is in FLARM, but ADS-B compatible. The unit is about the
size of a cigarette pack, and runs for 5-6 hours on a built-in LI-ION
battery. Their ADS-B out only transmitter runs on 4 AA batteries for 24 hrs
and has a parts cost of ~$150. The power consumption of both of these units
is much lower than modern Mode C transponders. The big challenge is to get
these units certified by the FAA so they can be commercialized. I am
confident that this will happen.

As far as FLARM compatibility, in the US this is completely irrelevant.
FLARM does not exist here. I find it highly questionable that anyone who
has looked at this issue closely will make an investment in this technology
here.

Jim,

You also make some good points. But I think you left out the most
important point of all, which is: what will the proposed device
protect me against?

Flarm may go on sale in the USA this summer, but as others have said
in this thread, it won't provide protection against SEL and MEL
aircraft in the USA. For that, as stated before, one needs a
transponder and a PCAS. Also, there is going to be a time period for
adoption of Flarm - how long will it take to get enough Flarms out
there to make a significant difference? A year? Two years? As was said
earlier in this thread, even in Europe where Flarm has had years to
make inroads, once you get away from the high glider traffic areas
there a many gliders without Flarm. It seems it would be much faster
to get a new mode S transponder with integral altitude encoder and
extended squitter, plus a Zaon MRS.

Let's suppose for argument that like you said, everyone in areas like
the Inyo and White Mountains, the Sierra Nevada, the Wasatch, and the
Appalachians agree to buy Flarms (and ignore the SEL and MEL threat).
I'm sure that would be helpful (eventually), but how about contests?
The competitors are looking for every advantage they can get, do you
think that they will fly with their Flarms turned on to broadcast
their position? I know, the same could be said for transponders...

As I said in my original post in this thread, my conclusion is that
given where I fly my best bet is a transponder and MRX.

-John

On Jul 23, 12:56 pm, JS wrote:
Good points, John.
But there's a 4th thing. The original post is about this summer, not
2013 or so. The feds are involved in ADS-B, so 2013 is likely a dream
and "outrageous" costs by roll-out time will seem luxurious.
In order to compare what's available, proponents of any systems
please give the cost to get it operational in glider cockpits now, not
in some future time after budget overruns and inevitable delays.
Price (if a transponder is required, include that).
Present availability of the entire system.
Power requirements for the entire system.
Installation process.
Certification process.
There must be other things.
And to compare apples to apples (or is it now macs to macs), if all
aircraft were equipped with similar devices, let's look at the pros
and cons.

I think that it helps to think of Flarm as being the algorithm and
radio transmission protocol and not the hardware. The unique feature
of Flarm is that it broadcasts predictions of a glider's flight path
based on the characteristics of glider flight (i.e including a lot of
turning and circling flight) and compares its own prediction with
those of the other received broadcasts. Given the agreed close
proximity of a lot of glider flying (eg circuits, thermalling, ridge
soaring, cruising on shared task etc) then without a proven and
common glider specific predictive algorithm any hardware technology
would be unusable for inter-glider collision avoidance because of
excessive alerts generated by proximities and paths that would be
unacceptable to general and commercial aviation.

If a transponder or ADSB equipment manufacturer wanted to make his
product useful for glider/glider or glider/low speed power collision
avoidance than he would need to include glider specific predictive
algorithm. He could then either license and use the proprietary and
proven Flarm algorithm or develop another one. The latter course
would have the 3 serious disadvantages of significant extra
development costs, development time delay, and a reduction of
performance as different algorithms in different gliders might result
in one glider pilot receiving a collision alert the other not.

The obvious way forward for transpdonder/ADSB manufacturers is that
which is being developed in Europe i.e. a common display that will
show inputs from Flarm units and transponder/ADSB.

Flarm functionality is already included in numerous other products
(varios and data recorders) and there is no reason why it should not
be included in future US or European transponder or ADSB boxes if the
market were sufficient.

Ergo the whole discussion based on the idea that Flarm and ADSB are
alternatives to one another is based on a misconception that, I have
to say, persists in the minds of many UK as well as US glider pilots.

John Galloway

( co-author of the 2007 Scottish Gliding Union Flarm trial report:
http://www.flarm.com/news/SGU_Flarm_Report.pdf )

jcarlyle wrote:
..., but how about contests?
The competitors are looking for every advantage they can get, do you
think that they will fly with their Flarms turned on to broadcast
their position? I know, the same could be said for transponders...


FLARM has a so called privacy or stealth mode, which you can activate
temporarily or permanently. With stealth mode activated, your ID is
hidden, and position/lift data are not transmitted. Only collision
warning is active in stealth mode.

--
Peter Scholz
SW 24 JEB

jcarlyle wrote:
..., but how about contests?
The competitors are looking for every advantage they can get, do you
think that they will fly with their Flarms turned on to broadcast
their position? I know, the same could be said for transponders...


FLARM has a so called privacy or stealth mode, which you can activate
temporarily or permanently. With stealth mode activated, your ID is
hidden, and position/lift data are not transmitted. Only collision
warning is active in stealth mode.

--
Peter Scholz
ASW 24 JEB