Student Drop-Out Rates...why?

Can we say ice? The Great Lakes freeze up in the winter. For historical
reasons, all the oil and gas is barged up the Hudson River from New York
City to Albany. The Coast Guard makes a major effort to keep a channel
open in the winter.

"Roger" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 01:27:37 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:


"Jay Honeck" wrote \

One idea: If you've ever driven past Gary, Indiana, you would see
mile
after mile of abandoned steel mills (that employed thousands, and
used to
stink to holy heaven when I was a boy). That would be a perfect
location
for a new refinery or ten.

Problem there is the fact that a supertanker doesn't fit too well in
the
Great Lakes locks, and that means no good way to get all of the crude
up
there, needed for the refinery to work well. (or at all) :-)

There's plans for a new/additional lock, but I don't think you can get
super tankers as far as the Great Lakes. Maybe, but I don't recall
any really wide boats/ships on them.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:krwPe.282197$_o.95907@attbi_s71...
It's insane, but it's the law.

So you wouldn't have any problem with a new refinery coming on-line up
wind of your abode?


I wouldn't mind at all. As a matter of fact I'd welcome it. At this very
moment there is a very old refinery 1.13 miles (as the Skyhawk flies)
away from my house and I can't remember the last time I smelled anything
from it.

Now, when I was growing up the place regularly put out an odor that would
curl your toes but over the last 20 years it has cleaned up nicely.

Unfortunately, it's that "nice odor" (or lack thereof) that cost billions,
and has made it economically impossible for any oil company to build a new
refinery.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"


Where do you get this stuff? AM radio?

Why would it be economical to retrofit all the existing refineries with
pollution controls (which has been done) but not economical to build new
refineries with the pollution controls?

Mike
MU-2

"Dylan Smith" wrote in message
...
On 2005-08-26, Jay Honeck wrote:
Unfortunately, it's that "nice odor" (or lack thereof) that cost
billions,
and has made it economically impossible for any oil company to build a
new
refinery.

I'd rather pay a bit more money for my avgas than have to smell the
stink of refineries.

Even with current regulations, the air in the area of Houston I used to
live turned green some days. The DE that I did my instrument ride with
told me it used to be much worse - the premature deaths, rivers catching
on fire, no fish in the bay etc. when he used to live in nearby Beaumont
(another refinery town). The EPA regulations if anything need to be
stricter still.


The total cost to society is less with the pollution controls than without.

Mike
MU-2

Why would this be good? Who would it be good for? How would you get the
crude to Gary Indiana?

You don't get it. It is not enviornmental regulation that is preventing new
refineries from being constructed.

Mike
MU-2


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:LwwPe.279601$x96.198470@attbi_s72...
We are dangerously low on refinery capacity, and current EPA regulations
make it essentially impossible to build any more in the U.S.

It's insane, but it's the law.

So you wouldn't have any problem with a new refinery coming on-line up
wind of your abode?

Depends on how far upwind.

One idea: If you've ever driven past Gary, Indiana, you would see mile
after mile of abandoned steel mills (that employed thousands, and used to
stink to holy heaven when I was a boy). That would be a perfect location
for a new refinery or ten.

It would be nice if our supposed "oil president" would issue an executive
order mandating construction of new refineries, pronto -- environmental
restrictions be damned. Of course, it would be tied up in the courts for
the next 15 years, and nothing would get done.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
ink.net...
Why would this be good? Who would it be good for? How would you get the
crude to Gary Indiana?

Barge up the Mississippi then Pipeline. At one time there were many
refineries in the area. Only one left is Mobil AIR. Most burned and it is
not economical to rebuild them for the reasons Jay mentioned.

You don't get it. It is not enviornmental regulation that is preventing
new
refineries from being constructed.

Mike
MU-2

Mike Rapoport wrote:
Why would this be good? Who would it be good for? How would you get the
crude to Gary Indiana?

You don't get it. It is not enviornmental regulation that is preventing new
refineries from being constructed.

What is preventing new refineries? (Sorry, I keep getting lost in the
thread.)



Mike
MU-2


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:LwwPe.279601$x96.198470@attbi_s72...

We are dangerously low on refinery capacity, and current EPA regulations
make it essentially impossible to build any more in the U.S.

It's insane, but it's the law.

So you wouldn't have any problem with a new refinery coming on-line up
wind of your abode?

Depends on how far upwind.

One idea: If you've ever driven past Gary, Indiana, you would see mile
after mile of abandoned steel mills (that employed thousands, and used to
stink to holy heaven when I was a boy). That would be a perfect location
for a new refinery or ten.

It would be nice if our supposed "oil president" would issue an executive
order mandating construction of new refineries, pronto -- environmental
restrictions be damned. Of course, it would be tied up in the courts for
the next 15 years, and nothing would get done.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Some are contending that enviornmental regulations are "preventing" the
constructions of new refineries.

Mike
MU-2


"Jimmy B." wrote in message
ink.net...
Mike Rapoport wrote:
Why would this be good? Who would it be good for? How would you get the
crude to Gary Indiana?

You don't get it. It is not enviornmental regulation that is preventing
new refineries from being constructed.

What is preventing new refineries? (Sorry, I keep getting lost in the
thread.)



Mike
MU-2


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:LwwPe.279601$x96.198470@attbi_s72...

We are dangerously low on refinery capacity, and current EPA
regulations
make it essentially impossible to build any more in the U.S.

It's insane, but it's the law.

So you wouldn't have any problem with a new refinery coming on-line up
wind of your abode?

Depends on how far upwind.

One idea: If you've ever driven past Gary, Indiana, you would see mile
after mile of abandoned steel mills (that employed thousands, and used to
stink to holy heaven when I was a boy). That would be a perfect
location for a new refinery or ten.

It would be nice if our supposed "oil president" would issue an executive
order mandating construction of new refineries, pronto -- environmental
restrictions be damned. Of course, it would be tied up in the courts for
the next 15 years, and nothing would get done.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Some are contending that enviornmental regulations are "preventing"
the
constructions of new refineries.

Mike
MU-2


It's all about money. Environmental regulation costs, citizen lawsuits,
cost to just build. Meanwhile, they make money on tight supplies, and
the industry now is very happy. With the concentration in this industry
among a few big players, no one is motivated to make the first move,
which will put them at a competitive disadvantage, I guess. Make sense?

Fred F.

"TaxSrv" wrote in message
...
Some are contending that enviornmental regulations are "preventing"
the
constructions of new refineries.

Mike
MU-2


It's all about money. Environmental regulation costs, citizen lawsuits,
cost to just build. Meanwhile, they make money on tight supplies, and
the industry now is very happy. With the concentration in this industry
among a few big players, no one is motivated to make the first move,
which will put them at a competitive disadvantage, I guess. Make sense?

Fred F.


No, it doesn't make much sense. The cost of enviornmental regulations are
already in their costs and refining margins are high (including the costs of
compliance). Most refiners are looking to add capacity over the next few
years although with expansions not "new" refineries. The idea that nobody is
motivated to make the first move because there are few players is silly.
Capital investment decisions are made based on the projected return.

Mike
MU-2

No, it doesn't make much sense. The cost of enviornmental regulations
are
already in their costs and refining margins are high (including the
costs of
compliance). Most refiners are looking to add capacity over the next
few
years although with expansions not "new" refineries. The idea that
nobody is
motivated to make the first move because there are few players is
silly.
Capital investment decisions are made based on the projected return.

Mike
MU-2

There are considerable environmental regulation costs in building new
refineries, though. As to the effect of a few players, I'm only
parroting what industry analysts say about the situation. Soon it may
not be the case, but if current refining capacity can meet demand,
where's the return on investment now?

The following research by the Consumer Federation in 2003 appears to
adequately explain the odd situation in this industry:
www.consumerfed.org/pdfs/gasoline1003.pdf

Fred F.