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#21
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Emergency instrumentation for cloud encounters
The interial various are really "instant display".
They record the information from the moment you turn the instrument on - which is probably when you turned the panel on. Therefore there is no concept of 'on' when switching to the A/H display. The gyros are used as part of the air model and are constantly calibrated by the external information including (in the Vaulter at least) the GPS. In addition the one I'm familiar with has a built in magnetometer that calibrates to your installation and gives a rather nice always available compass. Mel |
#22
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Emergency instrumentation for cloud encounters
On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 22:12:46 -0700, krasw wrote:
For vfr pilot with no training I would install simple electronic AH (Dynon, Gemini etc.) for the purpose of keeping your glider right side up and getting out of imc safely. You can fly whole day with T&B only, but it requires some training. I think the same definitely applies to the Dynon electronic AH and its relations: you still need the training before trying to use it 'for real'. I've had some training with a Dynon (bucket over my head in an SF-25) and find that I prefer using a partial panel, mainly because the Dynon heading indicator is just a small box showing the heading in degrees: I don't find it nearly as easy to scan as an analogue indicator or a ribbon like some of the other electronic AHs provide. Its just as well I prefer the partial panel because that is what is in my glider and there is no space in the panel to add an AH. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org | |
#23
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Emergency instrumentation for cloud encounters
On Tuesday, 21 April 2015 08:29:19 UTC+1, 7C wrote:
The interial various are really "instant display". They record the information from the moment you turn the instrument on - which is probably when you turned the panel on. Therefore there is no concept of 'on' when switching to the A/H display. The gyros are used as part of the air model and are constantly calibrated by the external information including (in the Vaulter at least) the GPS. In addition the one I'm familiar with has a built in magnetometer that calibrates to your installation and gives a rather nice always available compass. Mel Are the LX devices really running all the time? When you bring up a page showing the A-H it is not actually instant on - it takes a couple of seconds before it indicates that it is live. Presumably the sensors are alive, but there is something else which has to be on before you see the A-H display. So many solid state A-H's have become available over a short period of time.. According to reports they all seem to work very well. Does anyone know whether the technology (both hardware and software) is common to the different manufacturers, or has each manufacturer developed their own approach? Within the LX Nav range, does anyone know whether the S80/S8 have the same sensors and software as the V9? |
#24
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Emergency instrumentation for cloud encounters
On Tuesday, 21 April 2015 12:16:13 UTC+1, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 22:12:46 -0700, krasw wrote: For vfr pilot with no training I would install simple electronic AH (Dynon, Gemini etc.) for the purpose of keeping your glider right side up and getting out of imc safely. You can fly whole day with T&B only, but it requires some training. I think the same definitely applies to the Dynon electronic AH and its relations: you still need the training before trying to use it 'for real'. I've had some training with a Dynon (bucket over my head in an SF-25) and find that I prefer using a partial panel, mainly because the Dynon heading indicator is just a small box showing the heading in degrees: I don't find it nearly as easy to scan as an analogue indicator or a ribbon like some of the other electronic AHs provide. Its just as well I prefer the partial panel because that is what is in my glider and there is no space in the panel to add an AH. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org | Martin, I am confused. What instruments do you have in your 'partial panel' which you prefer to an electronic A-H? Surely you are not saying that you find it easier to cloud fly using a turn and slip than using an A-H? Are you referring to straightening up in the right direction when you have finished thermalling, in which case surely you would level the wings using the A-H and use your gps or your compass to exit your cloud in the right direction? Mark Burton, London Gliding Club, UK |
#25
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Emergency instrumentation for cloud encounters
On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 11:43:17 PM UTC-5, wrote:
WARNING: SIDETRACK--TANGENT--WAY OFF COURSE HERE Whoops, I was in error. I labelled my fingers with "left" and "right" and flew it through with my hand again. Postively-loaded case, wings-level, inverted flight-- you won't be there for long, but if you try to keep the turn rate indicator needle centered, you'll give inputs that tend to roll the glider back to inverted wings-level flight after any deviation. Maybe not such a great thing. Negatively-loaded case-- if you move the stick against the direction of any indicated turn, you'll tend to roll toward a steeper bank angle. Sustained negatively-loaded flight would theoretically be possible by moving the stick in the same direction as any indicated turn-- just like one does when flying inverted visually. Obviously this is all theoretical. For the most cases in cloud I don't think it's ending up in genuine aerobatic scenarios that the main concern. It's losing control of the pitch phugoid. A rapid increase in bank angle can put you through the redline long before the bank angle reaches sixty degrees. Likewise, a rapid decrease in bank angle during high-speed flight can pitch you up into the start of a loop if you don't react to the decreasing trend of the airspeed needle fast enough. So yes, I absolutely agree that an artificial horizon is the best way to go.. I guess that I've had enough exposure to what is possible with just a turn rate indicator, that I have a hard time believing that an artificial horizon wouldn't give the average pilot a good fighting chance without all sorts of special training. But, that's just me. I suppose the statistics say otherwise. I'm sure a pilot with Chukar's experience would have done very well with either an artificial horizon or a turn rate indicator. And I still like the idea of the redundancy provided by a simple, self-contained instrument that will power up in just a few seconds regardless of the aircraft's attitude and flight path. It seems like a good thing to have if the only other other thing one has is something that is built into a vario system. By the way, an older generation of this same instrument needed to be flown for several seconds in wings-level flight during a calibration phase immediately after the initial start-up. I think they've made a great improvement in modifying the design to eliminate this. Thanks much for all the various comments so far. It's a topic that I find quite interesting. S |
#26
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Emergency instrumentation for cloud encounters
I submit that you might be surprised at what happens if you power up the system in a steep turn. Maybe I'm wrong...
On Tuesday, April 21, 2015 at 2:29:19 AM UTC-5, 7C wrote: The interial various are really "instant display". They record the information from the moment you turn the instrument on - which is probably when you turned the panel on. Therefore there is no concept of 'on' when switching to the A/H display. The gyros are used as part of the air model and are constantly calibrated by the external information including (in the Vaulter at least) the GPS. In addition the one I'm familiar with has a built in magnetometer that calibrates to your installation and gives a rather nice always available compass. Mel |
#28
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Emergency instrumentation for cloud encounters
The TruTrac (or at least some models) is conceptually the same thing as the instrument I linked to. More bucks and a more user-friendly display. I can certainly believe that it is instant-on in any flight attitude. The main display is driven by a 1-axis turn rate gyro, not an AHRS system.
S |
#29
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Emergency instrumentation for cloud encounters
I mean "sensor" of course, not an actual gyro.
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#30
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Emergency instrumentation for cloud encounters
Same could be said for the untrained pilot trying to use an attitude
indicator for the first time. It's very easy under a vision restricting device in VMC. Not so much when using it successfully makes a difference. On 4/20/2015 11:12 PM, krasw wrote: For vfr pilot with no training I would install simple electronic AH (Dynon, Gemini etc.) for the purpose of keeping your glider right side up and getting out of imc safely. You can fly whole day with T&B only, but it requires some training. -- Dan Marotta |
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