USA - All students must show "papers"

In article ,
Tom Serkowski wrote:
Mark, read the reg again. As a US citizen you will be required to
prove your citizenship with original "papers" such as birth
certificate, passport, or naturalization certificate every time you
meet a new CFI. This CFI must make a copy and hopefully store it
where it won't get stolen for identity theft. See below for excerpt
of regulation.

Tom,

You may be right. A key factor here is where the FAA gets the
information printed under the "nationality" section of the FAA
license. If this is simply a reprint of the user-supplied information,
then (even by appeal for exception) there is no validity to
it as a nationality proof.

And it seems the "federal employee" section is more clear in the
verbiage you include.

Methinks we are heading towards a situation like Europe,
where as a citizen I must have a passport on me at all times to
be in my own country...it's a shame that the presumption may become
that one does NOT belong here...











If your CFI is a foreign national, he still has to do this, along with
himself going through the 3rd degree and $130 each time he wants
instruction. So the TSA trusts this foreigh national with your
identity, but not with taking flight lessons.

Granted it's a stretch, but I think the pilot community in the USA is
experiencing the first signs of what the non-Arian population of
pre-WWII Germany felt.

-Tom

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little
security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin

"As long as it's just the other guy losing his freedoms, I don't care.
But when it's my turn, I sure hope there's someone left to help me!"
Stupid Populace

(h) U.S. citizens and nationals and Department of Defense
endorsees. A flight school must determine whether an individual is a
citizen or national of the United States, or a Department of Defense
endorsee, prior to providing flight training to the individual.
(1) U.S. citizens and nationals. To establish U.S. citizenship or
nationality an individual must present to the flight school his or
her:
(i) Valid, unexpired United States passport;
(ii) Original or government-issued certified birth certificate of
the United States, American Samoa, or Swains Island, together with a
government-issued picture identification of the individual;
(iii) Original United States naturalization certificate with
raised
seal, or a Certificate of Naturalization issued by the U.S.
Citizenship
and Immigration Services (USCIS) or the U.S. Immigration and
Naturalization Service (INS) (Form N-550 or Form N-570), together with
a government-issued picture identification of the individual;
(iv) Original certification of birth abroad with raised seal, U.S.
Department of State Form FS-545, or U.S. Department of State Form DS-
1350, together with a government-issued picture identification of the
individual;
(v) Original certificate of United States citizenship with raised
seal, a Certificate of United States Citizenship issued by the USCIS
or
INS (Form N-560 or Form N-561), or a Certificate of Repatriation
issued
by the USCIS or INS (Form N-581), together with a government-issued
picture identification of the individual; or
(vi) In the case of flight training provided to a Federal employee
(including military personnel) pursuant to a contract between a
Federal
agency and a flight school, the agency's written certification as to
its employee's United States citizenship or nationality, together with
the employee's government-issued credentials or other Federally-issued
picture identification.


(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:416dab5f$1@darkstar...
In article ,
Chip Fitzpatrick wrote:
Where in this does it state that an existing pilot certificate is all
that is required???

* DOD or Federal Agency written certification attesting to the
Federal employee's US citizenship or nationality,

plus their government-issued photo ID.



I have a FAA issued pilot license and section VI says: Nationality - USA.
This is a federal agency written certification attesting to
my nationality.
... etc ...


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

I have a FAA issued pilot license and section VI says: Nationality - USA.
This is a federal agency written certification attesting to
my nationality.

When I became a US citizen, I sent the required letter of notification
to Oklahoma city. Several weeks later I received my new certificate with
"Nationality - USA" on it. At no point did I submit any documentation
proving that I was what I said I was - they simply took my word for it.
Hardly "written certification attesting to my nationality", IMHO.

Tony V.

In article ,
Tony Verhulst wrote:

I have a FAA issued pilot license and section VI says: Nationality - USA.
This is a federal agency written certification attesting to
my nationality.

When I became a US citizen, I sent the required letter of notification
to Oklahoma city. Several weeks later I received my new certificate with
"Nationality - USA" on it. At no point did I submit any documentation
proving that I was what I said I was - they simply took my word for it.
Hardly "written certification attesting to my nationality", IMHO.

Tony V.

An excellent point. I think you are likely right, and my
assertion is incorrect. I also suspect that the procedure
for validating "nationality" will change soon.
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Stewart Kissel wrote in message ...
Tom-

Dave C. at Mile-Hi said an existing license counts...I
just called him.



I suggest that he needs to read the rule. I hold an FAA pilot
certificate but under the rule I cannot recieve instruction without a
security check. I am a US resident alien.


Andy

In article ,
Andy Durbin wrote:
Stewart Kissel wrote in message ...
Tom-

Dave C. at Mile-Hi said an existing license counts...I
just called him.



I suggest that he needs to read the rule. I hold an FAA pilot
certificate but under the rule I cannot recieve instruction without a
security check. I am a US resident alien.

Andy,

You are now caught in the switches. The feds have
made a rule that may eventually retract your license. Get your Flight
Review before Oct. 20th, and you may get to fly for another two years
without ending up in a prison camp in Cuba for the rest of your life.

As a 1/4 Canadian, I'm a bit disgusted by the US Federal government's
CYA attitude towards GA. Maybe time to fly north, eh?

Good luck to you. My best advice: join AOPA, I don't think they have
any citizenship requirements and if it weren't for them,
general aviation would be nothing but a secret club working on better
anti-radar aircraft materials...
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message
Good luck to you. My best advice: join AOPA, I don't think they have
any citizenship requirements and if it weren't for them,
general aviation would be nothing but a secret club working on better
anti-radar aircraft materials...


Been an AOPA member since 1989 and getting an early flight review
before Oct 20 is being seriously considered.

I may be able to keep flying myself but I won't be giving any more
instruction. No more "wings" hours for a beer, no more flight reviews
for friends and aircraft partners, no more tail wheel instruction
because it's fun. Why would an American citizen want me as an alien
to have copies of all their nationality papers. Hell, I could take
their identity, get flight training in an MD-11 (that I can already
fly, I just don't do landings) and go hit a building somewhere.

Andy

In article ,
Andy Durbin wrote:
(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message
Good luck to you. My best advice: join AOPA, I don't think they have
any citizenship requirements and if it weren't for them,
general aviation would be nothing but a secret club working on better
anti-radar aircraft materials...


Been an AOPA member since 1989 and getting an early flight review
before Oct 20 is being seriously considered.

I may be able to keep flying myself but I won't be giving any more
instruction. No more "wings" hours for a beer, no more flight reviews
for friends and aircraft partners, no more tail wheel instruction
because it's fun. Why would an American citizen want me as an alien
to have copies of all their nationality papers. Hell, I could take
their identity, get flight training in an MD-11 (that I can already
fly, I just don't do landings) and go hit a building somewhere.

Andy

Andy,

As a US citizen I am very sorry that this will undoubtedly
negatively affect resident aliens. I and others in aviation are
sending in comments that will hopefully help.


The federal government has cut off a finger to get rid of
a blackened fingernail. Hopefully we can all contribute to
the reattachment of the digit.

Or at least we can give them
the finger...
:P
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

It just needs an addition to

America Land of the Free -- if you can afford it.

All the paperwork and a $130dollar alien fee seems
to put the stop on the odd flight when visiting the
country for a holiday

Dave

(thinking back to high school)....FIGHT!!!! FIGHT!!!!!


You tell em...all I can say is I own a manufacturing plant, and am a direct
Vendor the Boeing Company, for sheet metal and machined parts and
assemblies...and we sure as hell are busy for noone buying their
airplanes...

I will further say, that most of my neighbors are airlines pilots, and given
the choice, they'd prefer to Fly Boeing.

I will further say, that most of my neighbors are airlines pilots, and given
the choice, they'd prefer to Fly Boeing.

A former club member was a retired American Airlines 727 driver. A label
on his flight bag read:

"If it ain't Boeing, I ain't going"

:-)

Tony V.

P.S. Airbus makes good airplanes I but MUCH prefer the Boeing fly by
wire philosophy.