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#21
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wrote in message ups.com... Here I am with the big stick again. I can't recall anyone discussing rough area landings or hostile terrain landings in a long time. For example, forced to land (no matter the reason-you supply one) and you trees and water? Hmmmm, how about on city streets? That's the one I think about a lot, where I am in the megalopolis known as the Northeast corridor. Highways? Nearly always too crowded for my tastes. Last thing I want to do is cause an accident on the ground. For my money the big parking lots seem like the best bet. Malls, office parks, warehouses, there's almost always one nearby. Most of the traffic isn't moving and good chance you'll get at least 300' or so before you have to decide what you want to hit first, and by then my 172 will hopefully be going slowly enough to make it survivable. If it's a weekend the office parks and warehouses will be pretty empty so your odds improve a bit and some of them offer 500+ feet of free run and may even allow saving the airplane, though I've conditioned myself to not think of that. What I do wrong is not be so prepared for what happens afterward. 90% of the time I figure someone on the ground will see me come down and I won't be outside too long before help shows up, but 10% of the time it might be quite different. Just walking ten minutes from my house to Dunkin' Donuts this AM I was freezing my butt off, and wearing the same clothes I typically fly in. -cwk. |
#22
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In gliders the mantra was, "land upwind and upslope but upslope is more
important. Down slope is to be avoided." The challenge is to understand just how steep an approach is required and how much energy is required to flare properly for steeper slopes. It's not a minimum speed approach and you must have enough pitch authority to round out. Much more than one would originally think for steeper slopes. The rollout or skid will be much shorter which is always good. And it's easier to hit a spot. Every foot of ground covered after touchdown runs the risk of hitting something you didn't see. I routinely drove the nose in the ground with the brake to minimize rollouts over unknown ground. But for moderate slopes, my experience is that upslope is strongly preferred even with a moderate tailwind. wrote in message oups.com... Z Slope landings are tricky. Upslope or downslope....the problem is trying to determine the slope angle. So, having done a lot of crop dusting on mountain slopes with really severe angles, may I offer the following.... There are those who say land upslope. Problem is the slope may be so severe that you get nearly into a 60-90 approach angle! You won't know until its too late. If you fly cross slope until the very last of your controllable flying speed, you can make a hard turn upslope and at least know, or guess, how hard the impact is going to be. To turn downslope is putting yourself on a piece of junk headed down hill at 40mph or faster and it could go even much faster with only something very ugly to stop you. Corn often grows 10" or more and it is tough as hell...will drag you to stop in an amazing short distance. Same is true of many crops like cotton, oats, cane, sunflowers, etc. Once you touch the top of the crop you are going to touch down blind. If you are lucky, you'll touch down with the rows and minimum damage. If not.......hmmmmmm On city streets, the biggest problem is wires crossing everywhere. In my crop dusting career I've gone thru at least 18 wires and logged each of them. Certainly the aircraft were equipped with wirecutter devices, but still, there are wires that will not pay attention to modern technology and kill you. Start to look at wires as you drive around and see what you would do to get over/under them. That is the best advice I can give on that. With my experience I know I can duck under or flare over depending on the circumstances and not be afraid of being so close to the ground when it isn't an airport. Same for going under bridges or overpasses. Traffic kind of determines what to do in those cases. I've done a lot of slope landings with helicopters and believe me, just a couple degrees can make a huge difference. At phyxed wing speeds it is nearly impossible to discern those angles unless you are flying cross slope. The stress level with be off the scale by then so you have to have the plan worked out ahead of time and then hope you can follow it. If my reply gets out of sequence please bear with me. The thoughts get so excited and out of step. I'll be glad to elaborate if I have confused you. Merry Christmas and fly safe Ol Shy & Bashful |
#23
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C Kingsbury wrote :
Highways? Nearly always too crowded for my tastes. Last thing I want to do is cause an accident on the ground. For my money the big parking lots seem like the best bet. Malls, office parks, warehouses, there's almost always one nearby. I used to get a little nervous flying across Phoenix under the class B shelf at ~1400 ft. AGL until I realized that I was almost always within gliding distance of an 18 hole golf course, just about anywhere in the city. There are close to 200 of them. Oddly enough, over the years we've had more planes land on city streets and highways than on golf courses. John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180) |
#24
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Trent Moorehead wrote: Has anyone here actually landed in a cornfield like this? Dick Stark related one off-field landing by an amphibious seaplane. "The plane dropped into the corn with a horrible, hollow-sounding 'WHUMP' about 60 feet short of the runway, or in other words, about 30 feet into the corn. The corn was so tall that the plane sank out of sight. THE FIELD EXPLODED!! Fourteen zillion panic-stricken crows erupted in a thousand directions. It was as if a dense black cloud was spewing from the bowels of the earth. 'CAW! CAW! CAW!' It sounded like an enormous 1000 pound bird had suddenly started screaming. Some of the crows were flapping their wings so frenziedly as they made their aerial exit, they left loose feathers fluttering in their wake. Others seemed to be leaving small thin vapor trails behind them. They were very upset. About two seconds after the terrified horde of crows exited from the field, there was the roar of an outraged Lycoming engine. The plane's bow appeared, surging from the corn like the African Queen emerging from the reeds." The damage was impressive. The main gear was torn off, as were the wing struts. The wings had folded back, destroying the empennage. And it had been a fabric-covered aircraft. Stark also says "A cornfield is probably the worst type of crop you can choose to land in. The rock-hard ears of field corn will totally destroy any plane that dares to take them on." It beats dying trying to save the aircraft, though. George Patterson The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise. |
#25
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Has anyone here actually landed in a cornfield like this? -Trent Here's what can happen when you get too close to the corn. Two things to note about this report 1) the NOSE of the aircraft impacted the ground (although this is a tail dragger, corn can "pull" you down and potentially flip you on your head once you get into it) 2)aircraft sustained substantial damage yet the pilot was not injured. A full military shoulder harness could very well be the reason the pilot was not injured. CHI03LA272 On August 19, 2003, at 1700 central daylight time, a Piper PA-25, N4346Y, operated by Reabe Flying Service, sustained substantial damaged on impact with a corn crop and terrain near Brandon, Wisconsin, during a spray pass over the field. The commercial pilot was not injured. The 14 CFR Part 137 aerial application flight departed from Waupun Airport (WI07), Waupun, Wisconsin, on a local flight. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed. No flight plan was filed. The pilot reported that approximately 70 gallons of chemical remained as he was making the aerial swath before the accident. He reported the winds were from the south at 9 knots gusting to 14 knots, and the temperature was 88 degrees Fahrenheit. He reported the airplane was descending over a treeline heading southbound when it experienced moderate turbulence. He reported that he was "unable to stop the descent before the airplane made contact with the corn." The airplane continued it's descent and the nose of the airplane impacted the ground and the airplane skidded to a stop. The pilot reported there was no mechanical malfunction of the airplane prior to the accident. Pilot walks away from plane crash By Lee Reinsch the reporter staff The pilot of a Waupun crop duster that crashed late Tuesday afternoon walked away uninjured, according to Fond du Lac County Sheriff's Department officials. Reabe Spraying Service, Inc. of Waupun, owns the plane. Damon Reabe, 29, of Madison was applying pesticides to a field of sweet corn when the plane crashed south of Gauger Road in the Township of Springvale around 4:50 p.m., says Sgt. Jeff Bonack. Investors Tom Huettl and Bill Steenberg of Fond du Lac own the land, but farmer Kurt Krohn of Brandon farms it. Krohn said the accident damaged "only a small percentage" of his sweet corn crop. "I'm not worried," he said, adding that Reabe is a "very fair" company to work with. Bonack said he believes pilot error caused the crash but the sherriff's department and the Federal Aircraft Administration department are still investigating the crash. Reabe was alone in the plane. The police, fire and first responders of Brandon, along with the Wisconsin State Patrol and Brooks Ambulance, responded to the scene in addition to the sheriff's department. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.806 / Virus Database: 548 - Release Date: 12/5/2004 |
#26
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"Maule Driver" wrote in message m... Good point about difficult to find. I remember a glider crash into the trees during a competition in the Pennslyvania appalacians. We were on the ground listening to the pilot try to direct overhead searching aircraft and on the ground walking searchers to where he was hung in the trees. Finally he had to get himself out and down and walk out. The bright white Glider was never seen from the air. Had to walk back in the next day to get it. Perhaps one of the more important tasks is making sure that ELT works. (not req'd in gliders) Even a better reason to carry a GPS, even if it is a cheap land based handheld. -- Jim in NC |
#27
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On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:29:07 GMT, "Maule Driver"
wrote: But for moderate slopes, my experience is that upslope is strongly preferred even with a moderate tailwind. There's a neat private field near the airport I fly from. While it's possible to land downslope, you have to slip like crazy to do so, because westbound you have trees and power lines to clear, then a very steep slope (I love to take off from that slope, without ever actually using the runway), and finally a 1500? foot runway with a gentle slope, which however vanishes very rapidly indeed. I have never succeeded in landing on the first half of that runway. Eastbound, however, that gentle upslope is perfect for making wheelies so smooth that the passenger never knows when the plane is on the ground. If the wind is out of the west (it usually is, or SW in high summer or NW in the winter) I try to keep the elevator neutral until I have a lot of power on, so as to climb the hill at the east end. But I have never felt that the tailwind put me in any danger of overrunning the runway in that direction. (And if it did, the hill would stop me in plenty of time.) East or west, it's a joy to land there, and likewise it's a joy to take off to the west (I've never tried it in the other direction). all the best -- Dan Ford email: (put Cubdriver in subject line) Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com the blog www.danford.net |
#28
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#29
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zatatime wrote: I've been in WV and TN alot, and saw very varied upslope conditions which I didn't think I could flare over without smacking into the hill. My feeling is that, if the slope is that bad, it's probably descending faster than my rate of descent. Just follow the slope downhill and land where it's flatter. I think that would work in the Appalachians. I heard a story of my first instructor (old WWII pilot) putting down in a corn field with a student without any damage. Must've been young corn from the comments I've seen here. g It also might've already been harvested. When and where I grew up, the farmers would harvest the ears and cut the stalks for sileage. Such a field wouldn't be a bad landing spot most of the year. George Patterson The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise. |
#30
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"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message ... It also might've already been harvested. When and where I grew up, the farmers would harvest the ears and cut the stalks for sileage. Such a field wouldn't be a bad landing spot most of the year. This is a great point. Keep in mind what happens to your landing surface through out the year and with weather changes. A field that you may repeatedly fly over and think that would make a great emergency landing spot may turn into an unseen swamp after even a light rain. In much of the Midwest those perfectly flat farm fields make great options to consider, but maybe not after periods of rain. Dark soil will retain more water than sandy soil. Those same fields that are soft and smooth in the summer may turn rock hard and rough as hell if there isn't any snow cover. This is what central Wisconsin looks like right now. Full of farm fields that were disked and chisel plowed this fall but no snow cover to make them smooth. Perfect for ripping your gear off no matter what direction you land. In this situation I look for short grass without rocks because I know it hasn't changed. Here the rocks are in the ridges and the land that happens to be farmed isn't irrigated or farmed. Perfect landing spot this time of year would be a field with a cover crop of rye or wheat with an irrigation system. I know it will be smooth and rock free. The same idea can be transferred to about lakes. The lake that you fly by all summer long may turn into your best option once winter comes and it is frozen over. Watch for ice fishermen... if the lake can support their cars, chances are it will support your airplane. Avoid lakes without ice fisherman, this can mean the ice isn't thick enough or that it is a spring fed lake and doesn't freeze completely. Watch for snow drifts and touch down as softly as possible, remember braking action will be nill. Jim --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.799 / Virus Database: 543 - Release Date: 11/19/2004 |
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