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#21
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"G. Sylvester" wrote in message
m... I got into a discussion with an non-pilot MD comparing a professional degree versus flying... This person I had the discussion with is under the impression of flying is probably more like driving and anybody can do it... So the big question, compared to a your profession, how does flying VFR and IFR compare with regards to training, proficiency, continued training, mental challenge and anything else that comes to mind? There are two comparisons in question he flying vs. driving, and flying vs. professional training. Flying is harder than driving, in several respects. There are important aspects of flying that are initially counterintuitive (not just pulling the nose up if you're about to land short, for instance). Flying (safely) requires more knowledge about weather conditions and the vehicle's interaction with them. There are more emergency procedures that need to be instantly deployable. Navigation while flying is more complicated than while driving (except perhaps with GPS). Flying requires more multitasking. There are more regulations to be familiar with when flying. But there's no comparison between flying and professional training. Flying requires only a high-school student's knowledge, skill, and judgment (that's why we license 16-year-olds to solo, and 17-year-olds to carry passengers). Getting a PPL requires perhaps a month's full-time study (usually spread out over a much longer period, though); an instrument rating is perhaps another month. Compared to the years of complex study needed for an MD or a PhD, flight training is a relaxing diversion. That's why retired doctors and scientists often become pilots, but retired pilots seldom become doctors or scientists. --Gary |
#22
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"G. Sylvester" wrote in message ... I've had the pleasure of knowing a couple very distinguished physicians, and they are among the most humble and self-effacing people I know, far more so than a lot of corporate VPs, lawyers, and real estate agents who have no remote right to their arrogance. You don't deal with many neurosurgeons. The word ego is defined by them. ....not all, but 98% of them. They are probably the F22 and F116 drivers of our bunch. ;-) Actually one of the ones I was thinking of is a chief of neurosurgery at a large hospital, and had served as president of the Massachusetts Medical Society (which publishes the NEJM). I suppose he's in that 2%. Arrogance is annoying wherever it's found but I resent it a lot less in neurosurgeons et. al. than in so many other less-deserved areas. Cheers, -cwk. |
#23
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I don't know how much of this is avionics (Garmin
530/430, GPS roll steering, Flight Director, dual HSI's and RMI's) and a stable airplane vs how much is applicable to experience. I suspect it's mostly flight experience. My experience and outlook is rather similar to yours, except that I do my recurrent training in the airplane. My recurrent training cycle is about 3-5 hours every 6-10 months, mostly under the hood or in IMC. Last time I stretched it a bit to fit in the ATP. I don't have any of those gadgets in my airplane (not even a single HSI) and don't miss them. I find that an approach is IMC is no particular challenge unless I'm doing something unusual, like a full procedure NDB to mins where I've decided to actually fly the ADF needle rather than LORAN/GPS. Michael |
#24
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The MD equivalent for aviation might be an
ATP/A&P who once worked as an air traffic controller and has an aerospace engineering degree. I think even that is being way generous unless there is way more to being an ATCS than to being an ATP/A&P. I have a PhD in engineering and use it professionally. I am also and ATP/A&P recreationally, and I think the training and skull sweat required to get to that level in aviation doesn't even come close to what it takes to get a BS in engineering, never mind the PhD. In fact, I know at least one ATP/A&P who flunked out of engineering school. When it comes to the private/instrument, I think the professional equivalent might be something along the lines of those 3 month training courses required to become a VCR repairman - and then only if it's done right, rather than just meeting minimum requirements. Michael |
#25
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I happen to be one of those physicians, and also work as a surgeon in Level
I trauma center. Additionally I also had an additional six years of graduate school and research training along with my multi instrument rating. My flying time is spent between cross countries in a twin or more fun doing aerobatics. Regardless, there is no comparison between the rigors of medical training, especially surgery, and flight training. As a resident, and still today we often have to stay up an entire night operating or monitoring a patient who is gravely ill or injured. There are times when we need to make immediate decisions regarding the need to do something that might save someone's life or limb. Some may call this arrogance, but some times this is created from the necessity of having the confidence to make critical decisions in the face of crisis situations. Lack of confidence and indecisiveness can lead to fatal delays. The pressures and stresses of making these decisions is much greater than seeing the ground rushing up at 200k while flying acro- there is simply no comparison. Interestingly, while working as a flight surgeon in a fighter unit, I saw the same attitudes in the pilots- some people called it arrogance, but most would agree that it was confidence from having to carry out a difficult and stressful job. |
#26
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My airplane partner is a neurosurgeon and he is a lot less arrogant then
I am!! I guess he is in the 2% too... :-) Jon Kraus PP-ASEL-IA N4443H Mooney '79 M20J Colin W Kingsbury wrote: "G. Sylvester" wrote in message ... I've had the pleasure of knowing a couple very distinguished physicians, and they are among the most humble and self-effacing people I know, far more so than a lot of corporate VPs, lawyers, and real estate agents who have no remote right to their arrogance. You don't deal with many neurosurgeons. The word ego is defined by them. ....not all, but 98% of them. They are probably the F22 and F116 drivers of our bunch. ;-) Actually one of the ones I was thinking of is a chief of neurosurgery at a large hospital, and had served as president of the Massachusetts Medical Society (which publishes the NEJM). I suppose he's in that 2%. Arrogance is annoying wherever it's found but I resent it a lot less in neurosurgeons et. al. than in so many other less-deserved areas. Cheers, -cwk. |
#27
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Jon Kraus wrote:
My airplane partner is a neurosurgeon and he is a lot less arrogant then I am!! I guess he is in the 2% too... :-) Or you are just WAY too arrogant. :-) Matt |
#28
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On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 01:08:20 GMT, "G. Sylvester"
wrote: I got into a discussion with an non-pilot MD comparing a professional degree versus flying. snip So the big question, compared to a your profession, how does flying VFR and IFR compare with regards to training, proficiency, continued training, mental challenge and anything else that comes to mind? No need to convince me but more to convince the non-pilot. In particular I'd like to hear from the professions that require advanced degrees. You don't have to get as far as the advanced degrees. As someone else already said, aviation is a technical field. Look at it this way. PPL Ground school: one term, one class. Practical experience to get ready to test: about the equivalent in hours of one class, one term. Instrument rating: An additional class one term for flight and one class for books. Overall: 4 one term classes. I would liken flying more as an art than mechanical endeavor though. True, there are those who will never get beyond the mechanical phase of flying, but to those who do it is like music. However, going beyond the basic private with the instrument rating takes more learning and more time. If your add up the flying hours required to reach ATP (and get a job) it's probably close to the same as getting a bachelors degree. Continued training is a fact of life in many professions so I'd not set aviation apart in that respect. As far as flying IFR Vs my job: With only me and maybe my wife and/or a couple of passengers my decisions and competency affect only them and maybe a few people on the ground if I really screw up. As a project manager in industry and although primarily a computer jockey, the ramifications of a mistake in process control or quality control could affect thousands of individuals. Some mistakes could result in the evacuation of many people from their homes. The same is true for many of the Chemical and Electrical Engineers I worked with. I've seen things go amiss where the engineers were truely happy a particular plant was out in the country. As far as individual responsibility and pressure, I'd rate flying in solid IMC no different than going into work through rush hour traffic during a storm. Actually, I don't think I'd rate single pilot IMC as any where near that stressful. I have never felt any undue pressure flying in IMC (except as a student). Possibly as I had some very thorough instructors and lots of time in actual right down to minimums prior to taking the PTS to get the rating, I feel much more comfortable than many. I much prefer to fly cross country IFR now days as it makes things much simpler. Of course I still pick the smaller airports as my choice for destinations. It puts me up higher and *generally* out of the see and avoid crowd in high density areas. Of course it never takes away that responsibility. So, to directly answer the question: Only going through the PPL with the instrument rating is no where near as time consuming or difficult on an overall basis than getting a Bachelor of Science degree, let alone Masters or PHD. BUT this is sorta the proverbial, Apples to Oranges comparison. Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member) (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair) www.rogerhalstead.com Gerald Sylvester |
#29
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Hi Gerald,
As I sat yesterday and watched my wife get another sonogram on our now T-minus-12-weeks old fetus, your post came to mind. The Field of Medicine is very complex and covers a wide variety of topics. To become a physician, one must go through years of rigorous training, from learning theory like the scientific method, to techniques like suturing, to learning biology to be able to recognize and put together the pieces of that puzzle - the human body and spirit. There's no question in my mind that it requires an inordinate amount of discipline, training, wisdom, and talent to become a doctor, let alone a good one. It can barely be compared to what it takes to become a pilot. A better comparison might be to the Sonogram Technician who took the beautiful pictures of my unborn child. She sat in front of what is basically a PC with a trackball and a few extra buttons. She took a small handheld echo transceiver device and pushed it onto my wife's belly as she watched the pictures on the screen, and used the trackball and buttons to measure and take pictures of the various parts of the baby's body - the head, abdomen, femur, heart, kidneys, diaphragm, even the aorta and certain blood vessels. Your friend's statement that "flying is probably more like driving and anybody can do it" is not untrue. By the same token, doing a complete biophysical on a fetus with a sonogram is probably just like surfing the web, and anyone can do that too. For that matter, anyone who can cut their steak at dinner can probably use a scalpel. But does that really qualify them to be a brain surgeon? The technique for flying a trimmed plane straight and level is not very different from driving. I might even say it's easier than driving. But there is much more to being a pilot than flying a trimmed plane straight and level. Just as there is much more to being a sonogram technician than being able to swivel a trackball, push a button, and have an opposable thumb to hold the echo transceiver. A sonogram technician needs to know how to navigate the images she sees on her screen and use the control surfaces properly to ensure that she gets the pictures that are required. She needs to be able to recognize anomolies to ensure that if something is not correct, she gets the right pictures so the MD can properly diagnose it. She needs to learn a series of rules and procedures for ensuring the privacy, security, and safety of the patient who she is working on. In the same way. a pilot needs to be able to navigate so he knows how to find point B after leaving point A. He needs to be educated in a large number of laws and procedures for making sure he gets there safely. He needs to be able to recognize a variety of anomolies - from crosswind operations to engine fires, and deal with them properly. He needs to know how to communate with Even for driving, many of the same skills are required - navigation, rules and procedures, safety, even communication (eg: turn signals). However, because we all do so much driving, I think we take it for granted. So next time you talk to your MD friend, ask him why anyone who knows how to trim the fat off of a piece of steak couldn't do his job. And maybe for a moment, his ego will stand aside and he'll realize that when it comes down to it, we're all just people learning skills that most anyone can do if they acquire the same knowledge and experience. "G. Sylvester" wrote in m: I got into a discussion with an non-pilot MD comparing a professional degree versus flying. My background, BS and MS from the top 2 bioengineering programs in the US. (note, I put *much* more weight to experience over letters after a name including my own). Flying-wise, I have a PPL and about 33 hours into my IFR ticket. I should be able to complete it in under 45 so I'm probably ahead of the curve but a I gotta put much of this on my book and mental preparation before each flight and ahead of time that others didn't commit to. I plan on doing this for the challenge, excitement and unique lifestyle of being a pilot. I might, in fact, probably will become a CFI(I) but not full time. We'll see. If someone pays me $10 (or better yet $500,000) to fly their challenger or Citation to wherever I want to go, I'll consider. ;-) I've been in professional challenging situations and none have come close to IFR in IMC. Overall, my flying experience is just like everyone elses. It is challenging but by the time you get your ticket and after that still challenging as it is a never ending battle with learning to stay ahead of the plane. The IFR ticket is definitely a step above that as the consequences is a LOT greater. It is a licence to kill and there is a NEVER ending true battle with learning everything to save the asses to which the plane is strapped to. IFR is and will always be for me, the non-professional, challenging. Certainly after my training, my head hurts from the concentration level required. All of this is absolutely impossible to explain to a non-pilot...even a non-IFR pilot it is difficult. Back to the original question. This person I had the discussion with is under the impression of flying is probably more like driving and anybody can do it. This person is the typical MD, their way is the only way and they are the only ones who do it right and no one else can comprehend (I work for a medical device company and have dealt with hundreds of neurosurgeons, oncologists and medical physicists around the world). So the big question, compared to a your profession, how does flying VFR and IFR compare with regards to training, proficiency, continued training, mental challenge and anything else that comes to mind? No need to convince me but more to convince the non-pilot. In particular I'd like to hear from the professions that require advanced degrees. Gerald Sylvester |
#30
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Look at it this way.
PPL Ground school: one term, one class. Practical experience to get ready to test: about the equivalent in hours of one class, one term. Instrument rating: An additional class one term for flight and one class for books. Another point I forgot to make originally was that most classes you take during undergraduate and even graduate programs have no value to your final profession. I took 7 semesters of math above calculus. When was the last time I took a derivative? Ummm, a long time ago. I use the concept but I certainly didn't need 7 semesters of math. So with PPL and so far with the IFR, 95% of everything you learn is practical and therefore the training is a lot more efficient. Gerald Sylvester |
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