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#21
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In article ,
Greg Esres wrote: you receive a vector from ATC, you are obligated to follow it (or question it if you feel it is unsafe What tower would give you is not a vector; it's a heading. Is there any practical difference? |
#22
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Is there any practical difference?
Yes...only radar vectors put the burden of obstacle clearance on the controller. And radar vectors require radar contact. So a tower guy giving me a heading isn't able to provide me with any promise of obstacle clearance. |
#23
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Bob Gardner wrote: Check the latest AIM...SIDs are back. Bob Gardner I believe you. I know they were getting close the last time I heard about it. |
#24
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Greg Esres wrote: Is there any practical difference? Yes...only radar vectors put the burden of obstacle clearance on the controller. And radar vectors require radar contact. And, at a mountain airport, until you reach MVA on departure, even the radar controller and you are in a obstacle-clearance haze. |
#25
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On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 17:28:45 GMT, Greg Esres wrote:
If the ODP says go to a fix, and climb in a holding pattern, and Center already has someone holding there, then you've created a problem. Where might that happen? Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
#26
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On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 17:30:12 GMT, Greg Esres wrote:
you receive a vector from ATC, you are obligated to follow it (or question it if you feel it is unsafe What tower would give you is not a vector; it's a heading. That's not always the case. And to make matters worse, the pilot has no way of knowing without direct knowledge. However, I have been told that any tower-issued pre-takeoff headings (which really are Departure Control generated) should comply with either an applicable ODP, or established radar diverse vector area criteria. Unfortunately, there have been plenty of holes in that system, so it behooves the pilot to be alert if a tower-issued pre-takeoff heading is at variance with a published ODP. Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
#27
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That's not always the case. And to make matters worse, the pilot
has no way of knowing without direct knowledge. When would that not be the case? And if it were the case, the pilot must certainly know. If you don't hear the words "radar contact" followed by a heading, then you're not being vectored. |
#28
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Where might that happen?
Lots of places, probably, but one that I picked at random and called the tower was Sante Fe, NM. |
#29
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On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 00:57:17 GMT, Greg Esres wrote:
Where might that happen? Lots of places, probably, but one that I picked at random and called the tower was Sante Fe, NM. I'm trying to understand how this problem develops. It seems to me that in order for that problem to develop, ATC would have to clear a departure from SAF while they have an aircraft holding at the SAF VORTAC that is at or below the altitude to which the departing a/c was cleared. Is that what the tower said could happen? Or is there some other scenario? If the tower says they issue clearances of this nature, I'd like to check with some ATC safety folk that I know to verify that this sort of thing is in accord with proper procedure. Thanks. Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
#30
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On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 00:55:54 GMT, Greg Esres wrote:
That's not always the case. And to make matters worse, the pilot has no way of knowing without direct knowledge. When would that not be the case? And if it were the case, the pilot must certainly know. If you don't hear the words "radar contact" followed by a heading, then you're not being vectored. Well it should be the case whenever you receive heading instructions from the tower that they either do not conflict with an ODP, or that they have been assessed for a DVA. These vectors are below the MVA and a 200 f/nm climb rate is assumed unless ATC obtains your concurrence with a higher minimum rate of climb. It has not always been the case in the past. MRY as recently as 1999 was one facility where, at that time, they were issuing instructions in conflict with an ODP. Specifically they were vectoring folk to the east (towards some high mountains). I think this was changed when it was pointed out to them. What you say about hearing the magic words followed by a vector is certainly what is commonly taught. And is certainly the case when departing from a non-radar facility. However, it is my understanding that in the case of radar departures (and this assumes you are at a radar facility), the initial heading (the one given you by the tower prior to departure) will not be preceded by those words, and yet ATC will still be on the hook for obstacle clearance. Of course, you as the PIC have a responsibility here, too. I would expect that any pre-departure heading instruction (e.g. "fly runway heading"; "turn left heading 020 after departure") would be in accord with either the ODP or an established DVA. But since I have no information in my cockpit regarding DVA's, I would be real careful at a strange airport. Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
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